present combi just gone south and need to replace. It will run 8 rads and a decent shower if poss. Any suggestions from experience as to the most reliable/best performance/economical etc greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Our 2 year old 28Kw Vaillant has been problem free and the DHW performance IMO is good - but then we have very high mains pressure here and I don't like the DHW set above 55C anyway...
It's easily more economical than the museum piece it replaced :-)
Only downside is that it's noisy, in that it's "clunky" with the relays and stuff, not just ours either, the neighbours' one is the same.
Lee
Ferroli are highly regarded, no divertor valve to go wrong. £499 for 80kW model from
Ferroli are not highly regarded by me! We have a Ferroli Modena 1200 (with
8 rads and a decent shower as it happens), and it has given nothing but trouble in the last 2 years. It's my first experience of a combi, and possibly the last. It's noisy, unreliable and produces only a trickle of hot water in the winter.
This is actually the MAN Micromat, made by MAN Heiztechnik in Bremen. I have the non-combi version of this product. Eco Hometec are one of the UK distributors, MHS Boilers being the other. Each stick on their own label (sometimes) and the products are sold directly and not through the trade merchants. Most are sold to self builders and others looking for high quality energy saving products.
MAN is not that obscure, although are better known for trucks, buses and diesel engines. The boiler manufacturing division is a fairly well known player in Germany although not at the same volume as Vaillant.
The Micromat is a well engineered and solid product with sophisticated controls (all microprocessor based so no hardware reliability impact). From an energy perspective it is saving between 25 and 30% as compared to an old Glow Worm.
Not an inexpensive product, but I think very good value for money.
.andy
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I agree. Best get the Ferroli Modena 102 rather than the 80, which gives a higher flowrate. The Microgenus is the smallest combi case around and has a keep-warm heat exchanger to eliminate the cold lag to taps that many combi's have. It has all failsafe devices such as anti-scale, anti-frost, built-in filler loop, time clock, etc.
The Wickes Combi 102 is a good boiler too. Made by Halstead
What has gone wrong?
Andy,
Thanks for the more comprehensive summary and a reminder about the Micromat's true manufacturer. By "obscure" I was really referring to the "nobody has heard of it" and more worryingly most plumbers/heating installers that I spoke to when trying to get mine installed had the approach of "haven't heard of that - wouldn't want to touch it". What they probably mean is that they can't get it for £400 down at the local PM and then charge £2500 for putting supplying one - most entertaining.
Regards, Simon.
PS Hope your London meet goes well tomorrow. I would have been there but unfortunately I'll be travelling half way across the country to pick up my new car - that's the slight problem with these deals arranged by a broker. Oh well, it was a good saving.
There is a lot of conservatism in that industry. One only has to spend a short time in a heating merchant early morning or late afternoon to hear some of the misinformed claptrap about condensing boilers or anything else other than what they have fitted for the last
15 years.AIUI, Eco-Hometec mainly sell to self builders, who tend, quite often, to hand pick components for the house and/or are sensitive to eco-issues and to people looking for something better than the run of the mill. MHS mainly has the larger capacity models and I believe sells to projects requiring more capacity or small commercial requirements needing multiple boilers. There is a mechanism to group together multiple Micromats and have the modulating control across all of them. A tip here. The manual on the MHS site for the Micromat is far better produced than Eco-Hometec's translation and especially with application notes and the operating modes described.
Quite. Then there are the loyalty incentives from the large manufacturers like the holidays in Eye-bye-za and monogrammed overalls.
I've always found it curious in the construction industry how everybody has the same name. Mate. In the various merchants they always seem to be on first name terms, which is friendly, I suppose. I was wondering whether it's a derivation from Matthew or something, and whether change of name by deed poll is required before becoming a brickie or heating engineer.....
Thanks for that. Hopefully next time.
.andy
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Which probably explains why people have no faith in British plumbers! Did they give any reasoning behind this bizarre behaviour?
Hi,
had a Worcester Greenstar 28KW last 2 years (not a CDi with the leaky exchanger). Been very good except a problem with the brains which Worcester replaced free of charge under Manufacturers Guarentee.
Heats 11 rads in 2 zone setup with an excellent shower and has a small internal reservoir for immediate hot water. It is quite large tho.
It also survived me draining down the heating, then switching it on by accident, then over-repressurising it, then restarting it with the water turned off. And every time I cocked up it gave me an error code which I could look up in the manual (Never DIY with a bad hangover).
Bax
I meant to say the Ferroli Moderna102. The £499 price was for this model
Yes. Some of it was bullshit, but I wanted to hear it so I didn't try and correct anything.
The main reason was lack of reliability and expensive repairs. I can't argue with that -- I don't have the necessary data. Bloke behind the counter said one of the manufacturers was on fourth redesign of condensate drain in a year and third redesign of something else and someone else's heat exchangers usually failed just after warantee and cost over half the cost of the boiler, and the tale of woe went on. Basically, after fitting, they have to keep going back to sort the boiler, which gives the fitter a bad name, so they don't fit them. I asked specifically about the Keston (which I chose) and Ariston (which I looked at because it was the smallest one made). There was some agreement that Keston was probably as good as you'd get now, but ones which are 3 years old are badly suffering failed heat exchangers. Then a comment that whilst it used less gas, it had a 1kW fan in it so it just used more electric instead. They were very scathing of Ariston's, but I can't remember why. Also, I presumed from this conversation most gas fitters don't have a flue gas analyser (and when I spoke to Keston, they also assumed the gas fitter wouldn't have one). Reading between the lines, this is why they can't commission or service them.
So, what are the issues? I can believe that boilers based on conventional technology which has matured over very many decades are probably more reliable than boilers based on new technology. There seems to be a problem (or at least a believed problem) in condensing boilers not lasting out or very far past their warantee period without expensive repairs required. I suspect gas fitters have been using the same traditional brands for condensing boilers which they use for conventional boilers, and it seems to me those brands probably aren't the best -- they certainly entered the game late. Gas fitters are conservative (which is not unreasonable when your salary depends on it) and/or gas fitters don't understand condensing technology.
That's pretty pathetic, isn't it.
The only reasons I can see for that is if they are still hanging on the old wives tales of the unreliability of early UK manufactured products, or they don't know how to properly fit a condensate drain, or if the set up procedure requires a flue gas analyser.
If it's the last of these, there is really no excuse, they ought to have one anyway since they are only a couple of hundred quid.
.andy
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His name wouldn't have been Ned Ludd would it?
Do you suspect a conspiracy?
.andy
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Some early Ariston combi's were not that hot. The Microgenus is great little boiler and they give a 2 year guarantee with it.
If these fools had the intelligence to look around, they would see that some companies give 3 to 5 years guarantees on all boilers and those with stainless steel heat exchangers invariably give 5 years on the heat exchanger. Glow Worm boilers are now predominantly stainless steel heat exchangers.
You will find that the reason for many heat exchanger failures is that the boiler was not installed or commissioned correctly. In many cases the flowrate through the heat exchanger is far too low when TVRs close down.
Ed will clarify. There are many CORGI certificates. Some for gas installation and some for boiler servicing. If plumber does a CORGI installation course, he may not be licensed to touch the boiler innards.
Some gas cooker delivery drivers are CORGI registered, but only to connect up a cooker with a flexible hose and do a soundness test. Ditto with kitchen fitters who do gas hobs and ovens.
Condensers have been around since the 1950s.
History paints the wrong picture of Ned. The Luddites were not anti-advancement. What they were after was a system that would compensate the 100,000s whose living would be wiped out by the new technology. This was fair demand and the greedy factory owners, who were making millions, and were to make even more, would not pay into this pot. The press obviously sided with the establishment and painted the wrong picture of the Luddites (nothing new there, and echos of the trade unionists jailed by Thatcher to save 1,000s of jobs).
Ned Ludd was hanged. A sad and shameful era in our history.
A commie plot?
Certainly the heat exchangers are an expensive item, but perhaps this is an issue of manufacturers building to a cost and price point. When I was selecting, I eliminated all but stainless steel exchangers for that reason. I also asked each manufacturer for an extract from his spares pricelist of the 10 most expensive items. That was quite revealing and weeded a few vendors out.
I wonder how on earth they worked that one out.
I think that's exactly it. IIRC from reading Keston's manual, they supply the boiler preset and suggest that the fitter works out the gas rate by timing the meter. They then go on to suggest that the CO2 level is measured to be sure, and of course that needs a flue gas analyser. They then suggest that the fitter calls them if there are problems.
On the MAN boilers the procedure requires a flue gas analyser since the pressure test point that would normally be used on the burner side of the gas valve is actually at negative pressure and not meaningful. There is a procedure with a special test button that is used to allow the CO2 level to be checked at minimum and maximum burn rates, there being an adjuster for each. It is iterative, and takes a couple of goes at each end to get right. The the CO level is checked at each point.
I bought a flue gas analyser in a special introductory offer that BES had last year. Even if I only use it once a year when servicing and cleaning the boiler it pays for itself in two years.
I would have thought that any decent fitter should have an analyser as well - there's really no excuse. Since one of their roles is to look out for excessive CO emissions in an appliance, this is important anyway for servicing. Looking at the flames is one thing, but AIUI only shows relatively serious problems.
Exactly. About 15 years late. The loyalty incentive programs are pretty inviting as well.
This is a shame.
.andy
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I'm not sure why heating engineers haven't got flue gas analysers as according to the Screwfix book they're not that expensive. But the guy who serviced our church boiler before we switched to a pair of Kestons two years back hasn't and so far we've followed the (unwritten) advice of a Keston engineer who said that if the boiler was working leave well alone: the design is such that all soot etc gets washed down the condensate drain.
We did have a minor problem with one, traced to a igniter that was arcing down the ceramic insulator. The replacement cost £25, but more to the point took a week. Not a problem in our case with twin boilers but a plumber who had recommended one to a householder (rather than them requesting it) would be getting a lot of stick for doing so, this IMHO, the preference for the common names and models with off the shelf parts.
A point here was that the common makes were not the best at condensing technology, although changing fast. Ideal are good.
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