Weird phone wiring with new flat - help needed with BT Broadband and master socket

[kiich]

Hi

just moved into new flat and among other things that I am looking into such as boilers, holes in wall etc, I have now moved onto the phone wiring.

here is the current situation - bare with me as I think this is a very strange way of wiring - i think the previous owner did it himself... which might be ok or it might not. i need someone to verify...

BT Line coming into lounge - i can see a black wire coming through the wall into lounge and at the end of that, it has

a) the Blue cable connected to another cable's (which i will come onto later) Green cable using a plastic clear 'thing' (excuse me the technical term but i dont know what it's called) inside this clear block thing, i can see the BT's incoming Blue cable connected with another phone cable's Green wire.

b) the Blue and White cable connected again with this clear plastic thing with green + white wire of the same cable from above.

Note that none of the above is connected to any wall socket yet - it's just been done outside.

All other wires from the BT's incoming line is not connected to anything.

Now the cable that has green and green+white wires connected to the BT line, this line goes to a socket that to me looks like an NTE5 - but my NTE5 looks different from other NTE5 i find on the web.

it has the back plate which is the same - and the green and green+white wire is screwed onto A and B of this back plate.

but the lower plate has the following:

2,3,4 ans 5 IDC AND another CS, CB, CA, B and A IDC ??!!

so what are these CS,CB etc for? and how do i wire the rest??

to make things more complicated, i have another socket near where the BT main line is coming in - which has:

a)

2 - this has a green wire from another wire that seems to be going upstairs to another extension box 3 - white + orange from the same as above that seems to be going to upstairs to another extension box 5 - this has Blue from the same as above that seems to be going to upstairs PLUS white+blue wire from the wire that has green and white+green connected to BT's incoming line

confused? so am i!

total number of line = 3, incoming BT line, 1 line that goes into NTE5 and 1 line that goes upstairs

lets call BT line line X lets call internal line that goes to back of wierd NTE5 line Y lets call internal line that goes upstairs line Z

lets call socket that sits near my BT incoming line socket A lets call the weird NTE 5 socket that has many IDC connectors socket B

So, to explain the big picture:

• Line X's Blue wire connected to line Y's Green in mid air, outside of any socket

• Line X's Blue+white wire connected to line Y's Green+white in mid air, outside of any socket

• On socket A, IDC connection bit 5 has Line Y's Blue AND Line Z's white+blue twsited in

• On socket A, IDC connection bit 3 has Line Z's White+orange twisted in

• On socket A, IDC connection bit 2 has Line Z's Green twisted in

• On socket B, IDC connection 2 has Line Y's White+Blue twisted in

• On socket B, IDC connection 3 has Line Y's Orange twisted in

• On socket B, IDC connection 5 has Line Y's Blue twisted in i.e. other end of socket A's idc 5

Now - if I plug in my ADSL router directly to NTE 5's internal socket (i.e. lower face plat completely removed and i plug in directly to the test socket), my broad band works.

If i wire like above, and plug into the lower faceplat's phone socket, nothing works for broad band.

I just want to know what the hell is going on with the wiring!!

sorry if the explanation is very complicated - but thats because it's difficlult so explain!!

might be easier to attach an image - can i do this in google Group?? thanks

[Martin Bonner]

MUCH!

No. You can either construct something in ASCII art, or find a bit of webspace somewhere (your ISP probably supplies a few Meg for free), upload the image there, and then post a link.

(Sorry this isn't actually a reply to your question!)

[kiich]

Hi again

If it helps, I've found out what my weird NTE5 was

it's "BT NTE5 Master Socket with Digital Access Adaptor Plate" and it looks just like this URL:

how do i wire one of these then?

[kiich]

hi again

actually, its not EXACTLY like the one on that URL - it has all the stuff the plat of the image PLUS a BT plug that plugs into the "test" socket on the NTE5 backplate

the more i research, the more it sounds this used to be for the BT Home Highway?? hope that helps Kiichi

[Matt]

Just link CA to A and CB to B

Then wire out to all your sockets as per normal

[Peter Parry]

Commonly known as "Jelly Beans" and used to connect external wiring to internal. The connector is filled with a thick sticky grease which waterproofs the connection.

That is a digital NTE5 - part of an old Home Highway installation.

Change the NTE5(d) for a standard NTE5 or ask BT to do it for you.

[kiich]

Kiichi>> Thanks - but what I'm confused about is - do you mean A and B of the IDC block (i.e. the blue block where CS,CB,CA IDC connectors are) OR the A and B of where the BT mainlines comes into this NTE5 Digital Access socket? I am assuming the A and B of the IDC block and NOT where the 2 BT mainlines screws into... wanted to confirm.

so how would the other IDC connectors be done? what about CS?

how would i link CA to A and CB to B? With another cable?

what I'm still confused about is how would the other IDC connectors be wired? i.e. 2,3,4 and 5?

[John Rumm]

The NTE5 ADSL filter you link to is a customised version that has had an extra set of IDC connectors added to allow the unfiltered ADSL signal to be wired out of the back of the unit as well. The standard BT version only allows the unfiltered line to emerge on the socket on the front of it, not be continued to the rest of the house wiring.

See

for pictures of the BT style ADSL whole house filter and also piccies of a standard NTE5 kaster socket.

No, very different - that would be a NTE9 ISDN box. (about 6" by 9" with four sockets on the front, two RJ45 and two BT telephone.

[John Rumm]

This "thing", does it look like:

have a look at order code "UY BUTT" on

If so then there is a fairly good chance the wiring was done by a BT wireman since the splice connectors (for that is what they are) shown in the fuzzy piccies first off are BT special versions of the more generic scotchlok parts listed by RS.

They usually do it in a box of some sort, although the connectors are filled with a silicone gel so that they are waterproof.

Common enough - they will lay on more than they need to allow for future expansion or rectifying faults. (I had a new line installed, and they could not find a spare pair that worked - so they had to dig a trench and lay new cable - I now have an additional 10 incoming pairs (9 unused)!)

See my other post. Note also the older BT master sockets did not have the split face plate.

A = exchange A wire B = exchange B wire CA = ADSL filtered A wire CB = ADSL filtered B wire CS = ADSL filtered shunt (or "ring") wire.

The BT standard splitter only has the last three connections. The ADSL nation one also allows the unfiltered exchange wire to be routed on to other sockets (very useful)

Use the C? versions to run to any extension phone sockets that will not be connected to a ADSL router/modem. A & B go to pins 2 and 5 on a standard socket, S to pin 3.

(i.e. lower face plat completely removed and i plug in directly to the

As you would expect....

You are probably wiring the filtered output of the master in there somewhere.

Wire all the normal sockets with the C? lines, wire a dedicated socket for your ADSL device from the AB lines (assuming you don't want the ADSL devise plugged into the RJ11 on the front of the filter - in which case ignore the A & B wires on the IDC of the filter)/

[Roger R]

Any known supplier of these jelly bean wire splices? I mean the exact same thing not the RS scotchlocks.

Can anyone confirm that real thing (BT 8A ?) has entries for three wires, rather than the two wire versions at RS or elsewhere.

Roger

[Matt]

Yes, but the description he provided is exactly like the NTE5 frontplate used for home highway, remove the HH box and you cannot simply reuse the NTE5 "digital access" frontplate and wire extensions from there in the usual way. It needs the CA-A and CB-B terminals linking.

[Matt]

Basically you ought to get BT to regularise your installation as its non compliant

But if you want to do it yourself (it will still be non compliant but at least you can disconnect premises wiring for testing)

2 cores from BT come into the NTE5

connect them to a and b in the base of the NTE5

On the frontplate of the NTE5 connect from a to ca and b to cb

Connect all extensions to 2345 on the NTE5 frontplate

If the second socket next to your NTE5 is a master then you ought to convert it to a secondary

OR just get a new NTE5, and wire it in the conventional manner (you can then miss the bit about a-ca and b-cb loops)

[John Rumm]

Yes you are right... my thinking was however that if there is no matching NTE9, then the "digital" NTE5 would usually be gone as well (since when you cancel the ISDN / Home Highway (robery) contract they come and collect the bits normally and stick the phone socket back how it was). (that and the OP did link to the ADSL nation version of the socket)

[John Rumm]

I never found any when looking, however the RS version does perform in

*exactly* the same way. The main difference is the yellow cap. (Note these should not be confused with the automotive style scotchlok connectors most places sell as these do not have the gloopy filling).

The BT one I pictured only has entry for two (like the "UY BUTT" product on RS. I presume however they also have a splice version for applications where it is required.

3M also do a splice version (RS stock code 467-7014), that will allow you to tap into an existing wire and hence allows (in effect) the third connection.

[kiich]

Thanks - but more questions! (Sorry)

Yep - 2 core from BT into back plate of NTE5 digital access adaptor plate, screwed into A and B. Note that these wires i have connected to A and B are green and green+white. I presume i leave the rest of BT core's wires i.e. orange, orange+white, blue, blue+white alone and dangling?

So you mean connect the A of the IDC to CA of the SAME IDC?? why do i need to do this? Same for B-CB. What about CS well?

OK - so can I use the BT core's blue and blue+white to connect to 2 and

5 and then connect the other end to my other bt extension sockets??

Sorry to be a muppet on this but the way my cable has been done just doesn't look like what I'm used e.g. me dad's place or my mates who only has 1 master socket.

i think it used to be - as there is a capcitor and other stuff i only find on master socket normally...

hmmm - am i going to get into trouble by replacing the current NTE5 as this to me seems like acting as the "master" now?

thank

[Peter Parry]

We have them, in small numbers if you want.

The Cable Connector 8A is for in-line joining of wires and has entry for only two conductors.

[kiich]

Hi

Thanks for confirming - but why would that make my BT broadband not work when I wire everything as i described earlier in the post??

well i took your advice and rang BT - they quoted me =A3145 minimum charge for them to come on site, take the NTE5(d) out and put a normal NTE5 back in and wire back to normal!!! Is this reasonable??? surely not??

How much does NTE5 cost anyways?

I was reaslly disappointed with BT - they said no matter what the previous owner did to the phone wiring, if I wanted them to change back to normal, i would still be charged...

[kiich]

It looks like the pictures from your internode.co.uk addresss - NOT like the one from rswww. i.e. it has no yello or blue bit.

ok - so does that mean I can call BT to have the wiring back to 'normal' way that I'm used to for free??

Sure enough, they are greesy

OK - so what does that mean to my non-NTE5 master socket? This socket now has nothing connected to it and yet my broadband still works when I connect the router direclty to the NTE5(d)'s test socket...

so have i now got 1 master socket or 2?

So what goes where then?

ahah - ok then, my next question - when you say "A & B go to pins 2 and

5 on a standard socket, S to pin 3", which standard socket do you mean??

You see, I don't have any other socket apart from this NTE5(d) now - and from what you just told me, I must use the CA,CB and CS for any extension phone sockets that will not be connected to a ADSL router - well I now have nothing connect to CS,CB,CA - but what exactly do i connect to them?

And as for A & B - which pins 2 and 5 do you mean? the 2 and 5 that is also part of the remove-able lower part of the fron plate?

Using what cable? i ask because i couldnt find in say maplins...

I have a micro-filter that came with the BT broadband package - which has 1 normal telephone socket at 1 end and then 2 splitter - one for ADSL and other for phone.

Looking at the back of the lower part of the NTE5(d) face plate, all the C? lines are soldiered on to 2,3,5 at the back - is that correct?

[John Rumm]

No, they would probably just say "it works, if you want something else you pay" ;-)

It does however give you some confidence that it was done that way it is by someone who probably knew what he was doing.

As it would. Plug a router/modem etc into a line directly and you would expect it to work. The filters are not required for the ADSL bit - they are primarily there to stop the voice side of things interfering with the data.

OK rewind a little here - there are two different likely possibilities as to what may be going on here. Both seem to be addressed in this thread depending on who you read ;-)

I had jumped to a conclusion that you had an ADSL filtered master socket, others have assumed you have the remnants of a home highway setup. I am now leaning more toward agreeing with the others, which makes what I said before wrong - so ignore that! ;-)

OK, bit of general background: phone sockets (ignore yours for the mo!) have 6 connections numbered 1 to 6. Generally 1 and 6 are unused and often not even wired (many houses are wired in 4 wire cable). The pin 4 function is also archaic and not usually used. Hence the three wires that matter go to pins 2, 3, & 5 in a domestic setup. The numbering is printed/embossed into each socket etc. Pins 2 and 5 are basically the two lines that come into your house (after going past a lightning arrester in the master socket), and pin 3 is derived from one of those two lines via a capacitor in the master socket.

House wiring is usually done with 4 core non stranded stuff.

Maplin order code XR66W

OK lets start again from the beginning ;-)

To start with you have:

One master phone socket (type not confirmed) Two other sockets. All wired up on one incoming line, and they all work (for voice anyway) With slightly unusual wiring

You also have broadband enabled on the line, and you have a BT plug in microfilter.

As a first step I would be inclined to regularise what you have by sticking on a "normal" NTE5 in place of what you have, and then wiring each of the extensions in the normal way (i.e. with pins 2, 3, and 5 connected to the same numbered pins from the master socket). The extension wires connect to the back of the face plate on the socket such that when you remove it to expose the internal socket you disconnect the house extension wiring - (this is a useful diagnostic facility for when things go wrong)

Next you will need to make sure that all of the phone sockets that you have things plugged into, also have a filter if you want the broadband to work correctly. The simplest way to do this (although not always the most elegant) is with one plug in splitter per socket. Hence if you go that route you will need another two filters.

So you end up with a new master socket, and some normalised wiring. A microfilter plugged into each socket with only the phone side of it used on two of them. Plus one socket with the modem connected to the ADSL side and perhaps a phone as well.

[Matt]

Yes, because when Home Highway was fitted the NTE 5 frontplate effectively interposed a wall mounted box with a whole bunch of electronics called an NTE 9 between the rear of the NTE5 and the frontplate socket.

Ignore CS

Yes, but you really need a minimum of 3 cores (2,3 and 5) but you can usually get away with 2 (2 and 5) if you have modern non bell type phones

Yes, but the "master" bit is contained in the backbox of the NTE 5 which doesn't need replacing. Doing it this way you only need the frontplate replacing. Given the prices BT are quoting to do the job then just do it yourself .... Two bits of wire ca-a and cb-b are a damn sight cheaper than a new NTE 5 and will work just as well.