Vehicle ownership and changing vehicle registered keeper

[PM]

Here's the situation:

Miss A and Mr B have lived together for around 12 years.

A couple of years ago they borrowed £5k from Miss A's parents to buy a car. This was a verbal agreement; none of the money has been paid back. This is a major bone of contention - the parents want their money. It is unknown whether there is a receipt for the car.

The car is registered in Mr B's nameand was used by Mr B as the family car. Miss A does not drive.

Recently the relationship between Miss A and Mr B broke down, to the extent that Mr B no longer lives with Miss A. There is a huge amount of bad feeling on both sides, and for the purposes of this post let's assume a reconciliation won't happen.

Mr B has said he is going to keep the car. Miss A's parents want it back as part payment for the debt due. The car is at Miss A's house and she holds the V5 and one of the two sets of keys.

Who owns the vehicle? If Miss A's parents can prove they paid the money for it - say by showing a bank withdrawal for the £5k at the time the car was bought - can they claim ownership? Can the vehicle's registered keeper be re-assigned to be either Miss A or Miss A's parents - none of whom drive - without the consent of Mr B?

None of the family are the kind of people to sit down and discuss things rationally.

[George]

Difficult one that as it being a verbal agreement, try one of the uk.legal groups?

Pity it wasn't a cheque given instead of monies.

[Adrian]

PM ("PM" ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

But the V5C is in his name?

No way to be certain without it going to court, but I'd say that Mr B had the strongest claim at the mo.

I wouldn't have thought so - the loan would be unsecured on the car, just the same as the bank wouldn't be able to repossess the car if you defaulted on the £5k unsecured loan you'd taken out to buy it.

What's the car worth now?

Registered Keeper is, as DVLA take every opportunity to remind, nothing to do with legal ownership. They can apply to get a V5C in their name, but Mr B will get a letter from DVLA saying "Do you agree?". If he agrees or ignores the letter, they'll eventually get a V5C through. But they still won't HAVE the car...

If they use those spare keys to "reclaim" it, then Mr B is going to ring plod and report it nicked. Since his name's on the V5C, they're going to go with that.

Naturally...

Strikes me the most sensible next step is to go Small Claims on him for half of the original loan. Of course, since it was all agreed verbally only, there's probably not a lot of point in that.

x-posted to uk.legal

[Steve Firth]

Well, so much is going to depend on the non-existent contract that I see this turning into another Jarndyce and Jarndyce. Mr Bastard could well argue that Miss Ass entered into the loan agreement, not him or that it was a joint loan or indeed that it wasn't a loan it was a gift.

Miss Ass is deminstrating why co-habitation is fraught with problems and why lending money to someone without a written agreement is a really silly idea. As usual, there's also an element of post relationship anger and Parents Gullible no doubt what to hurt Mr Bastard for the insult and outrage to Daughter Miss Ass.

They are possibly also stuck with the problem that the car is no longer worth £5k.

They need proper legal advice, they may have legal cover on their house insurance. But I suspect they'll get told it's not worth pursuing.

[PM]

Oops...s'where it was supposed to go :-D

[PM]

Yes - at her address.

That is, of course, not the answer that Miss A's parents want to hear :-)

Probably around £1.5 - 2k

Miss A has the car at the moment, and it has been immobilised so Mr B can't use his key. However, he'll have contacts with low loaders - and low scruples - if he really wants it back.

He'd have to get insurance first...

Agreed

Which was where I meant to post in the first place!

[EricP]

The vehicle owner is the name on the license.

All the rest is hot air for a court to sort out.

[PM]

Insult, outrage, criminal damage to home and physical assault. So far.

Less than £2k I'd guess.

I doubt they have house insurance. Or car insurance for that matter.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Miss A's parents actually.

Yes.

well the easy option here is that someone takes miss A's keys and drives the vehicle away.

She sells it and signs the registration docs.

another way is to phone up DVLC and get the address details changed and new registration sent, and then sign that from the new address.

Or simply sell the car and dont notify the DVLC.

This puts all the burden on r B to prove it is his. He only has registration document, and that is not a legally binding ting.

[Adrian]

PM ("PM" ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Sorry, I'd missed that the car's actually at her place. So she's got everything bar the name on the V5. Small but vital difference. I assumed he'd taken it with him and was using it as his. In that case, I think I'd definitely be getting it re-registered. The V5C is still at her address, so he's not going to get a chance to object.

See above. Possession is 9/10ths...

Mmm. Definitely move it.

Even better. For them.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No, they will not. Mr B cannnot prove it is his, as he hasn't GOT the registrations docs. Which is not in itself a huge case, but the docs are not proof of legal ownership.

Unless he cn prove ownership..that he supplied the actual money, or that the money was freely gifted to him by Miss A's parents, he has very little he can do.

Plod will wash his hnds of it and say that until and unless civil court establishes ownership, there is no evidence for prosecution.

Ive been involved in similar cases, and my string advice, not hampered be being part of the legal profession, is to get the car in a safe place, and tell Mr B that there is 500 quid for his signature on a piece of paper signing it over to Miss A, or a bloody long court case that will cost him thousands and lead to him losing it anyway.

[_]

Then sell it.

"What car?"

[Adrian]

The Natural Philosopher (The Natural Philosopher ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

£20 and a week or so, and he's got a replacement set - with his new address on - from DVLA.

[Steve Firth]

Well trying to be objective. Firstly in relationships like these the woman ends up going back to the man over and over again. Someone I know has a female relative who spends most weekends in hospital and once a year or so in intensive care. The longest she has been away from her Mr Bastard is about three weeks and apaprently got a bigger kicking when she went back. So the prognosis isn't great, she could end up back there again.

As to the money, if he has no assets other than a £2K car they're never going to gt £5K back, and from the sounds of it, he'll never agree to make voluntary payments and will do whatever he can to avoid paying. If they can't afford a lawyer they're screwed. If they could avoid a lawyer I suspect that they wouldn't get a very favourable report on their chances.

[PM]

AFAICT the only document is the V5C which shows the registered keeper. There is no legal documented proof of who the owner is.

[John Rumm]

I think I would be inclined to let him keep the depreciated asset, and chase the loan instead!

[Adrian]

John Rumm (John Rumm ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

"What loan?"

[John Rumm]

The money he borrowed from her parents and used to buy the car. It was not a HP agreement - just an unsecured loan by the sounds of it. So how he spent the money does not seem that relevant. That he did not repay it is the real issue. (It depends a bit on if it was just "him" that borrowed the money... probably more likely the couple borrowed it so you may have difficulty assigning liability)

[Andrew Gabriel]

What license? Vehicle keeper is recorded on the registration document (V5?) but it makes it very clear that this is nothing to do with the legal owner, which DVLA don't record.

[matthew.larkin]

Doubt that very much. Much more likely that Miss A and Mr B jointly own the car.

No, the loan is not a secured loan; only if they successfully sued for the loan repayment might there come any issue with forcing him to sell assets to satisfy the judgement.

Not lawfully, no - the existing registered keeper has to sign over the registered keeper status.

Practically, this might work. Legally, not though as she would be committing a fraud by pretending to be the registered keeper (when she is in fact not the registered keeper, just the joint owner).

My summary would be:- A and B are joint owners of the car. B is the registered keeper, but that is a position which gives obligations to the keeper, not rights of ownership A and B are probably both liable for the loan to be repaid (if a contractual loan exists - but where is the consideration? Mum and Dad agreed to loan cash (consideration) in return for what? Potentially a promise of repayment, but that may not have existed)

So A owes =A32500 and owns an asset of =A31000. But the loan is unlikely to be required to be repaid, so she owns an asset worth =A31000 B owes =A32500 (which parents want repaid) and owns an asset of =A31000.

B's maximum exposure is therefore =A32500, but parents should accept =A31500 plus the title to the car being gifted to A.

Matt