Thank you, Smartmeter!

[Robin]

If you want whataboutery then:

what about telling us when this person left and how broadly their usage differed from yours and your wife's?

what about all the tariffs with no exit fees which mean you could switch back to a standard tariff at no cost?

what about how easy it is to test sensitivity to differences in expected consumption (say + or - 50%) very easily with a spreadsheet of your own or by sticking different figures into a comparison site?

and indeed what about explaining why you thought you had irregular readings that didn't give you a baseline for comparisons?

It seems to me nothing at all like that because you start with the millions of people with empirical evidence that switching is easy and saves money. (And also because I'd have thought the starting point for weight saving would have been the driver/rider. Cf coxes in eights before the days of minimum weights.)

[Chris Green]

What we all pay for as well is the vast armies of people working for EON, nPower, Ovo, etc. who do nothing else but waste your and my time and money on their wages. They provide no 'added value' to the electricity they buy and sell, you can't really add value to electricity, what goes into the wires at one end has to come out of the other end.

Is there any other country (at either extreme capitalist or extreme socialist end of the spectrum) that has a ridiculous system like ours for paying for electricity supply?

[John Rumm]

Also here:

[T i m]

I'm not sure how many vehicle racing events find an increase of weight makes anything better, other than downhill stuff. Adding weight (ballast) is how they 'penalise many racing classes of course.

In actual fact, 'adding weight' *did* help overall, but only because it was in the shape of an aerodynamic nose cone. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Robin]

Depends what aspects you consider to be "ridiculous". (I know some think it's anything but a vertically integrated supplier with a monopoly in an area if not an entire country.) But competition in retail energy supply has been a goal of the EU for many a day and you might care to llok at some of the output from its various arms; and from the independent Council of European Energy Regulators. (NB you don't need regulators if you have monopoly nationalised industries.)Eg from one I have to hand from 2018*:

"The highest number of household electricity suppliers that are active nationwide in 2017 has been recorded for Spain and Norway, with 213 and

82 suppliers, respectively. In the gas market, the number of household suppliers that are active nationwide is the highest in the Czech Republic (110), followed by Great Britain (101), while in a few countries there is only one supplier." ...

"As a result of unbundling, other liberalisation measures over the years and favourable wholesale market access and price conditions, many new companies entered retail markets and are operating as alternatives to incumbent suppliers" ...

"[ON SWITCHING] This year?s analysis underlines the complexity of the issue: the eight countries with an external (to a different supplier) electricity switching rate above 10% in 2017 (Belgium, Finland, Great Britain, Ireland, Norway, Portugal, Spain and the Netherlands) have, on average among this group, a lower contestable part in the bill,but may also differ on non-monetary and other factors. The internal switching rate, meaning a renegotiation of/change of contract with the current supplier, is highest in Great Britain and Sweden, with 27% and 26% respectively."

*"Performance of European Retail Markets in 2017", Council of European Energy Regulators, Ref: C18-MRM-93-03, 17 December 2018

[T i m]

<snip>

Yes please, all part of fuzzy logic based thinking. ;-)

Can't remember ... (I'm not 'calendared either and don't do birthdays, anniversaries etc) but over a year ago?

Trial and error you mean? Yeah, that's a valid point, as long as you know what are which and can be sure you *will* be able to switch back to something that means you don't end up worse off.

It wouldn't be 'very easy' at all Robin as I've never made a spreadsheet so would have to spend even more time dealing with that.

Because I only had irregular readings as the majority were estimated.

Easy when it doesn't go wrong. I've seen Watchdog and heard of all those cases where it goes wrong and takes ages and costs loads to 'clear up'. I would be one of those.

Saves money, possibly, but at what cost (see above and my total lack of spreadsheet skills and no regular data points to actual plot usage).

Well, only when you know what the weight of the machine itself is. Like, there would be little point me losing weight to gain a speed increase if I took up tank racing. ;-)

Sure, and that was what I got to when testing the water to see what hardware I could shave weight from first.

One of the top drivers (Cedric Lynch) did actually substitute a 'jocky' for at least one event but few could catch him in any case so it didn't really matter.

He was beaten once though <weg>

Cheers, T i m

[Tim+]

Oh I dunno. I think my electricity company add quite a lot of value by telling my my electricity rates for every 30 minute period over the next 24 hours. By knowing the rates in advance I can make significant savings by changing the timing of my consumption.

Of course you won?t get that on a flat rate tariff with a dumb meter though...

Tim

[T i m]

<snip>

Bingo.

It's all gone to some bizarre lottery / gouging system like our housing stock.

But this is what happens when you 'commodity something, like we have done with animal flesh and excretions (inc bear bile?) or insurance values for the loss of life or limb.

Cheers, T i m

[Dave Liquorice]

Maybe because the DD is setup as a fixed rather than variable one to side step almost all the issues you complain about.

In 40+ years of using DD's I can't remember a single instance of an incorrect DD amount being debited or credited to my account.

They will but that method of payment has costs associted with it that DD doesn't. Mainly having to chase customers for late/missing/canceled payments. Cancel STO and the first thing the recipient knows about it is when the expected payment doesn't arrive. Cancel a DD and the recipient gets told PDQ.

[Dave Liquorice]

1 point = 0.5p but as you say not hard cash. 1 point per £1 spent at least in Sainsburys supermarket. Other sources of points may have a different rate.

[Dave Liquorice]

Only one RCBO here, eight RCDs...

I did miss out two non-maintained emergency lights. Did I mention the weather station base/display unit?

No real conclusion how much an RCBO takes. A few guesstimates of about a watt. A measurement of 6.1 mA (1.4 W) corrected to 0.017 mA (0.004 W)...

[Dave Liquorice]

If use is very low, just a few units a day, the standing charge may become the largest part of the bill. But a place that is being lived in is not going to have useage levels that low.

With the above exception these days the "cheapest" tariff will always be the "cheapest" as no tariff I'm aware of varies rate by useage.

[Spike]

No. Much as I admire your ability to manufacture hobgoblins where there are none, to see the reason why there would not be a crash you need an understanding of the difference between a supply industry and the stock market. And, of course, you are completely forgetting, perhaps for good reason, about the people who have no idea of who their energy supplier is, or how much energy they use, or what the price is, and who can't find their mandatory Annual Statement with all this data on.

With so many people about already being gouged because they are ignorant of everything to do with their energy supply or use, do you really think that is a scenario worth considering? ISTM you have much learning to do concerning the modern world.

[Jeff Layman]

I would think that's true for the great majority of DD users, but for me the problem exists with the system. I don't know if it's accurate, but the wiki (

) on DDs states "The interface for completing the Direct Debit Instruction is controlled by the merchant, who then sends the data from the form to the customer's bank, via Bacs". The merchant is in sole control? Why not the bank - or at least the merchant /and/ the bank?

I was once told - no idea if it's true - that the reason DDs are popular with merchants is not only that they are in control, but a DD is considered as "money in the bank" even if they don't have it yet, and it is available for deposit in an interest-paying account. That is not, of course, true for standing order payments, which is why they are not attractive.

[Tim Streater]

What sort of control do you expect the bank to have?

Only large organisations can participate in DD; your corner shop is unlikely to be able to. I don't know what the rules are, or how (if you think your org is large enough) you go about joining the DD scheme, or what vetting is done, both when your org applies and then ongoing, but it seems to work.

[Dave Plowman (News]

I was told if you query a DD with your bank they are always on your side.

Other thing is only stringently checked merchants are allowed to operate a DD. You could set up a standing payment to anyone.

[alan_m]

With a true DD you and the bank are in control. My bank allows be to cancel DD on-line at any time and they advise that I also tell the merchant that I'm doing so.

You may be confusing the option of allowing the merchant to initially set the DD and to alter amounts, say, with energy usage, but you are still in control.

It's different if you foolishly set up the equivalent of a DD on credit card.

[quote] To do this in online banking:

Log in to online banking. Select the account with the Direct Debit you want to cancel. Go to ?Planned payments?. Scroll to ?Direct Debits?. Select the payment you want to cancel. Select ?Delete?.

If you want to cancel a Direct Debit, you have until 9pm the business day before the payment is due to debit your account.

In the event that you need to cancel a Direct Debit that has debited your account that day, you have until 7pm to cancel this.

We also recommend you inform the company claiming the Direct Debit that you wish to cancel it.

Please contact us if a deleted Direct Debit still appears on your account after one working day.

You can delete and stop Direct Debits up to 7pm on the working day the payment is due.

If you delete the Direct Debit after 7pm on the working day it is due, we can?t guarantee the payment will be stopped.

We also recommend you inform the company claiming the Direct Debit that you wish to cancel it.

Please note, in cases where a Direct Debit due date falls on a weekend or bank holiday, the payment will happen on the first working day after. [/quote]

[Roger Hayter]

It used to be different, but nowadays I believe you have similar rights regarding a continuing credit card authority.

I'm not sure about the Paypal equivalent, though.

>

[Jeff Layman]

I'd already been through all the relevant

and webpages and have no argument with your "quotes", as that is what they say. But somehow they don't stop fraud and other issues. You only have to read to see it has gone on at a massive scale. I note, however, that that wiki section relies on pretty old references.

So I'm still not happy with some of the DD mechanics, as I don't think the banks take enough care, and there's not enough oversight of the system. You only have to read the comments in the moneysavingexpert forum on energy DDs to see there are still problems. I thought I was coming up with an extreme theoretical example earlier in this thread of £500 being taken rather than £50, but was amazed to find that had actually occurred. Read this and some of the comments following:

.

Actually, if that comment by Biscuit_Tin is correct in respect of compensation being part of the scheme: "Any other consequential loss you wish to claim for, you will need to provide full details and evidence to your bank, as it will all form part of your claim under the direct debit guarantee. Hence it is your bank that will refund you consequential losses too." If that is accurate (I will check with bacs or dd.co.uk) then I will be a /lot/ happier and will look at DDs again.

[Robin]

That is fraud to which you are already exposed if you use your account in any way which reveals your name, sort code and account number*. So you are not safe if you use cheques. Or if a bank employee leaks your data. The fraud does *not* depend on a direct debit mandate. And if you report the fraud you will be reimbursed: "loses £540 on average before realising their bank account has been hijacked" doesn't mean "loses for good".

*the seminal example was provided by Jeremy Clarkson - who did get his money back