Surge Protectors

[Bob Eager]

While I agree about Belikn (as already stated), you have once again chosen a bad example:

[w_tom]

Go to that Bud citation Page 42 Figure 8. A plug-in protector earths a surge - 8000 volts destructively - through the adjacent TV. Why? Too far from earth ground and too close to transistors. IEEE does not recommend what Bud posts. IEEE recommends in Standards. IEEE Standards repeatedly define what is necessary for protection - earth ground.

But Bud promotes for plug-in protectors. He follows me everywhere as a troll promoting myths. Well look at Page 42 Figure 8. Protectors do not stop or absorb what 4 kilometers of sky could not. Protectors shunt (clamp, connect, bond) a surge to earth ground. In Figure 8, what was the path to earth? Well protector was too far away from the building earthing electrode. It had to make that 8000 volt connection somewhere. So it earthed a surge, destructively, through the TV.

Bud's citations show how plug-in protectors can work and can cause damage. Bud own citation says an effective protector does this: page

6 (Adobe page 8) of You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor

Did Bud forget to mention that earthing is the protection; that a protector is only the connection to earthing? Well plug-in protectors don't have that earthing. Bud even insists earthing is not necessary. Funny. Even his own citations define earthing as necessary - as does the IEEE where recommendations are published - in IEEE Standards.

No earth ground means any effective protection - which explains why even big buck protectors permitted TV failure - maybe exactly like on Page 42 Figure 8. The plug-in protector (too close to transistors and too far from earth ground) shunted 8000 volts destructively through the TV.

Informed consumers install and earth one 'whole house' protector where those wires enter the building. All utilities connect 'less than 3 meters' to that common ground. How might a protector damage that TV? See page 42 Figure 8 where a plug-in protector earths a surge - 8000 volts destructively - through an adjacent TV. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Plug-in protectors hope you never learn about their missing earthing wire. Profits are just too excessive to be honest.

[w_tom]

As one doctor noted about miracle cures: if 1000 different solutions exist for a disease, then it's a sure bet that none of them do anything useful. Cough syrups were are another 'miracle cure' industry. Why was he talking about cold remedies? Those cough syrups may have been identified by their manufacturers of killing some small children. Profits apparently were too high to be honest - just like plug-in protectors.

The OP had a protector on his TV - and the TV was damaged. Bud's own citation Page 42 Figure 8 shows how a plug-in protector can earth

8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV. Plug-in protector manufacturers know this. But when selling a three quid power strip with a few pence of parts for tens of pounds, well, honesty is someone else's responsibility. They have Bud to promote more myths.

Maybe we should blame the victim - the original poster - for his own TV damage. Clearly a power strip protector was not at fault. Bud tells us so..

[Andy Dingley]

So there's nothing actually _wrong_ with what he writes, it's just that you subjectively are bored in reading it?

Lots of things are "boring" until you have a need to know them.

[DD]

Thanks for all the replies. Am cogitating and digesting the various suggestions and comments.

I checked the earth wire and found it had unwound itself from the mains downpipe...Uhhhh!

[Huge]

After my experiences with the Belkin media card reader I foolishly bought, I shall definitely never buy anything of theirs again.

[Huge]

Weird English he writes. Is it his native tongue?

[Huge]

Do the Google.

[Bob Eager]

[Huge]

for 27 years, I *still* think he writes weird English. :o)

[Ian_m]

We use things like this at work after repeatedly having our ADSL modems fried via both phone and mains lightening induced surges.

fitting not had a dead modem. Fitted on a large board with phone and ethernet filters (+large earth lead) so as to keep the unprotected wiring as far as possible from the protected wiring (2 foot I seem to remember being the key distance).

[Huge]

Given that the lightning has jumped several hundred feet from the cloud to ground, what difference do you think 2 feet is going to make?

[w_tom]

Earthing wire must not be wrapped around anything. That wrapping is bad for same reasons why sharp wire bends compromises protection. Essential that an earthing wire from every protector be short ('less than 10 feet'), direct, separated from other non-earthing wires, no splices, etc. Each earthing connection should be separate until all meet at the single point earth ground at the service entrance. A water pipe ground is typically too far away; therefore insufficient. A short and direct connection to one dedicated earthing electrode or a common connection to an earthing 'system' defines protection.

BTW, above discussions were only about secondary protection. That secondary protection 'system' is defined by its central and essential component - the earthing electrode. Your primary protection system is also defined by the one component that defines that 'system' and also should be inspected:

[bud--]

For the IEEE guide use

> Go to that Bud citation Page 42 Figure 8. A plug-in protector

[The diagram shows a surge on a cable TV cable and 2 TVs, TV1 has a plug-in suppressor.] For those with minimal reading and thinking ability, the point of the illustration, as stated in the text, is "to protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required". And the protector did not do anything to the adjacent TV. It protected TV1 and lowered the surge voltage at TV2 from 10,000V to 8,000V.

The guide, published by the IEEE, says plug-in suppressors are effective.

To quote w_: "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be challenged technically, then attack the messenger."

As many know w_ is evangelical in his belief and searches with google- groups for "surge" so he can share his drivel on plug-in suppressors. I recommend people read reliable sources.

For those with minimal ability to think, they show how plug-in suppressors work and prevent damage.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

The question is not earthing. The *only* question is whether plug-in suppressors work. About that the NIST guide says "this is the easiest solution".

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) in earthing. Since plug-in suppressors do not work by earthing he believes they cannot possibly work. But the IEEE guide explains they primarily work by clamping the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the suppressor.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in surge suppressors are effective.

Bullcrap. I recommend reading the IEEE guide which includes earthing as one of the major protection methods. I *repeat* the explanation in the IEEE guide - plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing. But that violates w_'s religious belief.

The required statement of religious belief in earthing.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides both say plug-in suppressors are effective. For reliable information read the guides.

As always, no links from w_ that say plug-in suppressors are not effective. All you get are w_'s opinions based religious beliefs. Where are supporting links??

Bizarre claim - plug-in surge suppressors don't work No sources. Distort or attempt to discredit opposing sources. Attempt to discredit opponents. w_ is a purveyor of junk science.

-- bud--

[meow2222]

I gather America has a much bigger problem with lightning induced surges than over here.

NT

[Clive Mitchell]

In message , [e-mail] writes

Much more overhead wiring outdoors.

[w_tom]

With 100 electronic appliances in a home, Bud says spend $20 or $100 for each plug-in protector for every 100+ household appliances. Especially important are protectors on each bathroom and kitchen GFCIs, smoke detectors, furnace, and other human life safety electronics.

Oh. Protectors cannot be installed there? Oh. That would be $2000 or $10000 for protectors? Yes. Because Bud promotes for those manufacturers, then an effective solution is not relevant to Bud. He needs you to spend multiple thousands of dollars.

Page 42 Figure 8 (8000 volts destructively through adjacent electronics) may happen when using plug-in protectors too far from earth ground and too close to transistors.

But then your 911 Emergency response center, telephone company, local TV and radio stations, ham radio operators, etc ... they don't use plug-in protectors because effective protection is required. They install a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

$1 per appliance for an effective protector - or $2000+ for protectors that don't even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. Bud recommends the $2000 and $10000 solution. He promotes for plug-in protector manufacturers.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Missing earth ground means no effective protection as demonstrated by Page 42 Figure 8.

Bud lies about what responsible organizations recommend. Even his own NIST citation page 6 (Adobe page 8) is blunt about what a protector does - :

Divert it to ground. Earthing. An effective protector earths. Bud tells us that earthing is not required - in direct contradiction to his own citations.

Recommendations are in IEEE Standards. Multiple IEEE Standards recommend earthing for protection. Bud hopes you never read these numerous IEEE Standards. IEEE Red Book (Standard 142) is what Bud cannot deny:

Bud must deny Page 42 Figure 8 because a plug-in protector earths

8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV. No earth ground meant no effective protection - and 8000 volts destructively through an adjacent TV. Informed consumers install and earth one 'whole house' protector. Responsible manufacturers such as GE, Leviton, Intermatic, Square D, Cutler-Hammer, and Siemens make 'whole house' protectors which are even available in Loews and Home Depot even for less than $50. Bud would have you spend how much? He promotes plug-in protectors.

[Huge]

Combined with wooden houses and volunteer Fire Brigades.

[Clive Mitchell]

In message , Huge writes

But they're very enthusiastic!

Oh how they love to hang off the back of their fire truck and whoop and yell as they zoom along the road. They truly are "heroes".

Do you know who they call out if a lift breaks down in America? No not a lift engineer. They call out the fire service who then hack the door open with crowbars.

God Bless America.

[bud--]

Statement of religious belief in earthing. The IEEE says plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing. .

Ho-hum - repeating from the last post, the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are" the easiest solution".

Religious belief in earthing #3. The question is not earthing but

*only* whether plug-in suppressors are effective. Both the IEEE and NIST say they are.

Because the IEEE guide contradicts w_'s religious view he has to discredit it. But you really have to be stupid to think the IEEE would publish a guide that contradicts the IEEE color books.

The IEEE guide, pdf page 4, makes it clear that the guide is peer- reviewed within the IEEE and represents the views of the IEEE.

Geez - Loews and Home Depot are in the UK?? Can you pay in $$??

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Still never seen - a link that say plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Just w_'s opinions based religious beliefs.