Solder joints beneath floor - safety?

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exactly. the ones I'm on about have trade accounts with the local Hepworth depot and they are not the cheapest suppliers by a long shot.

RT

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plastic has been used below gound for years, where's it's really inconvenient to just pop another elbow on, hasn't it ? so plastic can be shown to be effective and your theory of joints lasting no more than a year or so doesn't scan.

plastic and pushfit has been around long enough for it's longevity to be proven and it's benefits, in some cases, far outweigh that of copper.

RT

[Dave Plowman (News)]

So you're saying that the pipe used underground is the same and uses the same sort of connectors?

I'm not denying it has its uses and may well be easier to use for those without the skills to work copper. Or those doing it for a living where speed is more important than cost.

But the point I'm trying to make is that for DIY where speed shouldn't be such a factor and the satisfaction of a job well done should come into the equation, taking the time to learn the few skills needed for working copper pays off in a neater job.

YMMV, of course.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

The only pin hole I ever had was in an end feed fitting bought as part of a bulk pack from Wicks.

So I only now buy tube and fittings from my local PM.

I've not had problems with tube kinking using a decent pipe bender.

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no, but I will for you. it'll give you something else to argue about.

the point you were trying to make was clear for all to see, the joint will fail, won't 'last a year or so' which is so obviously wrong.

RT

[Dave Plowman (News)]

My point was that the parameters a pro uses for assessing a product aren't necessarily the same as mine, and I'm just a DIYer, and this a DIY group.

You only need to look at the number of crap boilers recommended by pros because they get the best deal on them. And because they stick to one makes it easier to install without thinking. For example.

[Dave]

In article , Dave Plowman (News) writes

Yes I also only buy pipe from merchants now (after realising the difference) but the copper that the builder used to plumb my house is definitely of a poor quality, the comment about kinking was just a thought but if you're not using the thin stuff anyway its not applicable to you anyway

[Dave]

In article , Dave Plowman (News) writes

The inference here is that we plastic users are not doing a proper job by using plastic, I don't agree but I can't see our opinions changing by arguing it here so I guess we can just agree to differ, unless you want to change your mind? :-)

[John]

You are lucky Dave. - I spent several hours on a job last week cutting out and renewing lengths of steadily perforating 28mm copper pipe under a bedroom floor, which was said to have been installed during refurbishment about fifteen years ago. Little green spots were developing about every

500mm along its length and a few were dribbling water. The householder assured me it was a heating pipe so having tied up the ball valve and drained the boiler the dribbling continued unabated. Ho ho we thought there must be a trapped drop section so having arranged a collection bowl and bucket I started to rotate a pipeslice. A jet of water appeared so I stopped cutting and started collecting water. Having filled the bowl I emptied it into the bucket and he took the bucket away to empty while I held the bowl again. Several buckets later I asked him to go and tie up the other ball valve and run the bath taps to drain the Cold water tank in case the cylinder coil was holed. The taps ran dry while I continued to collect water and the flow continued unabated. Another forty or so buckets after that with the water coming out getting steadily hotter the water flow finally stopped. After doing the job and untying the heating F&E ball valve the heating system filled up but the offending pipe remained empty. Untying the other ball valve resulted in the pipe cooling rapidly as it filled with cold water and creeping about in voids and under cupboards to trace it I found it was a long supply pipe from the loft tank to the cylinder but via a convoluted route. Oh how I do love old houses where standard methods are the exception rather than the norm!

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Wonder what the problem was? Chemical reaction or impurities in the 'copper'?

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article , Dave Plowman (News) writes

In my case just to get the best possible end result. With regards to money, I often end up buying more expensive materials to get a better end result, since I'm not spending money on a tradesman. In the case of this heating system, I went for a condensing boiler (when they were a lot less popular than they now are) with oversized radiators, and the radiators themselves were more expensive and stylish than the cheapest I could have bought, and the system is zoned. I could probably have got the cheapest possible system installed by a tradesman for much the same price I paid for the parts alone, but I got a very much better system for that money instead, to exactly my spec and my required workmanship quality. That's why I DIY (and I enjoy too, obviously).

It does have an excellent track record.

[Andy Wade]

The following is copied from

Corrosion of Copper Tubes

--------------------------------- It should be emphasised that the number of copper tubes affected by pitting corrosion is an extremely small percentage of the total amount manufactured and installed in the United Kingdom. The majority of copper tubes give satisfactory service over many years. Two forms of corrosion to which copper tubes are susceptible under specific circumstances are recognised and described in the literature.

A1 Carbon film

-------------- This form of pitting, sometimes referred to as ?Type 1?, corrosion can cause premature failure in copper cold water pipes carrying hard or moderately hard deep well waters. Two factors are involved in this form of attack. Firstly the water must be capable of supporting it: organic matter found in surface derived water provides inhibition against attack, and only deep well waters can support it. Secondly, attack occurs only when a thin film of carbon is formed within the bore of the tube during the manufacturing process. The cleaning processes now used by major manufacturers ensure that copper tubes meet the requirements of BS EN 1057 concerning the absence of deleterious films in the bore.

A2 Hot, soft water

------------------ This type of pitting corrosion, sometimes referred to as ?Type 2?, is extremely rare in the United Kingdom: it seldom causes failure in less than about ten years. Carbon films are not a factor in this type of attack. It occurs in hot water pipes in some soft water areas specifically if the operating temperature is above 60oC. This should be borne in mind when specifying higher temperatures in an attempt to eliminate problems associated with Legionnaires? Disease. (See also section on Commissioning and Appendix E).

A3 Flux

------- Excessive use of flux resulting in flux runs within the bore of the tube may cause corrosion and should be avoided. Hence the need to use fluxes sparingly and according to manufacturers instructions.

[Dave]

bit ambiguous that, does it mean that it doesn't include imported copper tube? I understand the thin walled stuff is all manufactured overseas

This sounds like my problem, not sure about the deep well waters though but we're certainly hard around here

[John]

SNIP

I don't think any of the options described in the article fitted with the pipe I dealt with. It carried cold water from a loft tank where oxygenation could take effect, it wasn't down to soft water since ours is pretty hard, and some of the pits formed at the top of the tube where carried over flux is unlikely to deposit although some of them were at the sides and the bottom.

I'd say free particles of a contaminant such as iron in the copper would be a more logical cause

John

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Presumably then that tube wouldn't meet the appropriate BS?

[John]

Probably not but IIRC there was a choice of cheap imported (Polish I think) stuff or none at all at the time so it was used. Its only after a number of years that the chickens are coming home to roost

There was a mild steel tube also produced which had exact dimension match for the non available copper and lots of this went into heating systems. That was said to be OK as long as the system was dosed against corrosion and I still come across bits from time to time.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

But surely the copper shortage was many, many, years ago? Rhodesia declaring UDI in the Harold Wilson era?

[John]

Whatever the reason Dave it became "bad to get hold of" at odd times since, and yes I recall the shortage you mention which affected everything and resulted in a lot of aluminium cable being sold. There were various failures with surface corrosion and "Copperclad Aluminium conductor" small sized cable was introduced but it seems to have died out again fairly soon after. Large CSA cables and busbars employing aluminium are still used today but it requires competent installation.