Solar Panels

On 5 Mar 2006 13:43:35 -0800 someone who may be snipped-for-privacy@care2.com wrote this:-

The same false claims do indeed tend to come up with some regularity, whether about wind farms or solar hot water heating.

Reply to
David Hansen
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I never cease to be amazed by human behavior. I know I'm repeating myself here but I remember 40 odd years ago, a prospective nuclear industry worker being interviewed on the radio. He was asked "Aren't you concerned that your children's health might be seriously damaged by nuclear contamination and their children for generations to come" The answer was "It's a job."

Reply to
Mike Halmarack

Yep. When it comes to the weekly pay packet, people will lie, betray their principles and tell themselves lies. Look at the local villages who make their living serving the local squire. They defend the squire and all the system that surrounds him to the hilt. The fact is they would be better off with out him. But they can't see further than the next pay packet.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

that's a fairly normal cognitive dissonance behaviour, you won't manage to budge it (think: religion). My favourite are the people who are fanatical conservationists until they have kids. Then it's straight into the 4x4 for school runs.

Pete

Reply to
Peter Lynch

Usually the MPV, which does make environmental sense when carrying kids and lots of people.

I have a neighbour with a very expensive 4x4. he justifies it saying it is environmentally friendly as it only does 2,000 miles a year. I told him to get a cardboard cut-out and put that next to his house.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Why does he need to justify it? If he can a) afford to run it, b) it does the job he wants to do and c) he likes it, then that's it.

The rest is fluff.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Oh so none of this matters to you or the trendy town people with 4x4 vehicles.

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Reply to
Mark

The point is that no amount of media coverage and especially neighbours telling people how to run their lives will make a difference if they want to do something.

People should be honest. Drivel's neighbour has his 4x4 for the reasons I listed above. The story that he fed Drivel was fluff of the same type as Drivel suggesting a cardboard cut out. Neither the story nor the suggested solution had any value whatsoever.

We are faced with dishonesty all the way around the climate change debate with motivations ranging from political to economic to media hype to scientific bandwagon. Note that I am being very careful here to include as many of the interested parties that I can think of - I am not taking sides in any direction because it distorts one of the key aspects. That is that regardless of whether one believes that there is a problem or not and the degree of that problem, the most vociferous arguments in any direction come from people or groups with an agenda or vested interest.

That alone discredits much of the whole issue in the minds of Joe Public. It is the reason that Drivel's neighbour finds it necessary to come up with a lame "justification" for his 4x4. The reality for the neighbour is the three points I mentioned above and he feels mildly guilty about it. Does it mean he will sell his 4x4 or get something else next time? Almost certainly not.

There are two things that would alter the neighbour's behaviour. One is to legislate specific types of vehicle off of the road. The other is to apply selective taxation to make them unaffordable and reduce the numbers.

The government is just as dishonest. A few million here and there spread among various homeowner energy saving grants is a drop in the bucket. The motivation isn't to make a big difference, it's to be able to say qualitatively what has been done at the next world energy conference and to give those who are in receipt of said grants a feel good factor and hopefully buy their votes. Had it been genuine it would have been on a much grander scale and the money wouldn't have run out with a whisper as it has.

The right approach would be to focus first on those things which will have the biggest improving effect on the environment once effort expended and financial investment ae taken into account.

That won't begin to happen in any meaningful way until there is a greater degree of honesty over the whole issue. It is not to say that I think that this is a reason to do nothing. Far from it. In some areas, there is undoubtedly a need for urgent action. However, we should not kid ourselves or allow ourselves to be kidded into thinking that all initiatives that are claimed to be in support of the environment are immediately worth pursuing or have that as the primary objective.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Sure is nice to read some clarity on this.

NT

Reply to
meow2222

Clear as mud in some parts. In London people are putting stickers on 4x4s which clog up and pour pollution into the streets (just got to have 4x4 going to Safeway). People see these vehicles are a problem to their everyday lives in many ways, from shear size to pollution in the air and noise from the large dirty diesel engines. The law is failing people in these congested areas, so they take it upon themsleves to do something about it. What is new in that? The people are leading the march against this sort of stuff. 4x4s are commercial vehicles, not domestic, so why should people put up with them clogging the streets any more than having the streets clogged up with JCB diggers every morning and afternoon on the school run (just got to take the kids to school in the bucket). If hundreds of JCBs clogged up Matt's streets every day, he would be the first to make a fuss.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

It would be cheaper to have a cardboard cutout than an expensive lump of metal on the drive.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

The message from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Though I can't stand the sodding things, most 4x4s are comparable in road-footprint to Mondeo sized cars.

Reply to
Guy King

I think the government grant has now finished. What's more, if you installed it yourself the government wouldn't pay the grant.

We installed our own in February, it cost just over £2,000 including a lot of plumbing, more than conventional systems would need.

It's nothing to do with feeling good and economics aren't the only criterion.

What's more, the panel can move house with you for up to three moves, and keep its guarantee.

Mary

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Reply to
Mary Fisher

Well said.

Mary

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Reply to
Mary Fisher

Yes, ours is over 30C today and it's overcast and raining.

Mary

Reply to
Mary Fisher

Indeed.

Reply to
Mary Fisher

You rehash the same stuff every time you see an opportunity!

I don't think you have direct experience ...

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Reply to
Mary Fisher

And have they?

Reply to
Mary Fisher

I believe they have and that some effort has been put into covering it up where possible. Apart from the high profile events like Chernobyl, clusters of disease and defects can be attributed to anything the authorities choose and they're not going to choose anything that will cause them a big problem.

I'm not a scientist but I believe that those forms of nuclear radiation and contamination that escape from or are dumped by the nuclear industry are injurious to health both immediately and in the long term.

Look at the enormous amounts of deception, death and destruction that's put into acquiring the power that fossil fuels provide and it's easy to see that morals, compassion and rationality are often trampled underfoot in the pursuit.

Reply to
Mike Halmarack

That is the problem.. he can afford to run it. A suitable application of tax so he can't and all will be well.

It may be a good application for road pricing

0p a mile for small cars 100p a mile for 4x4s

If that doesn't work then 100000p a mile should.

Reply to
dennis

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