Sleepers

[Ben Short]

I need to make a raised bed in the garden, just three sides as one side will be against the concrete fence.

My wife wants the sleepers to be stood on their small side so that the sleepers will be 8 inches high. They are 8 foot long, by 4 inches front to back and 8 inches high. She wasn't two of these tall. So in effect the sleepers will be 16 inches tall. Now, I can get long enough screws to go into these, the bolt kind from Screwfix, but they will only penetrate the bottom sleeper by 5 cm. Is it OK to Grip fill the sleepers together or should I allow them movement. It will be retaining shrubs and perhaps a tree at some point, albeit small at first. It is just if I sink, perhaps, 6 bolts into each sleeper straight through the top one 8 inches and then 5 cm to the bottom one I don't want movement and wondered if spreading GF along the length will help to keep the two sleepers together.

Also is it OK to bed the sleepers (bottom one) on some concrete so it doesn't move. i.e., dig a trough all the 3 sides, fill with concrete and sink then in perhaps 2 inches deep to give them a good base.? Or is there a better way?

I bought the sleepers Cost £210 delivered for 10 x 8 foot new sleepers. The local wood man wanted £1000 to put them together, 24 foot across by the two ends 4 foot, 2 high. I think this is a lot for a few hours work.

I am a complete novice so if there is another way Laymans terms please :)

[The Natural Philosopher]

Holy cow.

Why did you marry her?

She must be no bigger than your dick!

Why do you care if the sleepers are together?

I think you are insane.

I KNOW you are insane.

Nom he saw you coming.

Thats a kind way to put it, yes.

so if there is another way Laymans terms please :)

Pile em up. nail em roughly together and fill with earth, and then get a bigger wife.

>

[Steve Firth]

Gripfill won't work if they are real sleepers. The preservative makes the sleepers greasy and Gripfill doesn't work with greasy wood. If OTOH they are simply large baulks of timber being passed off as sleepers it make work, sort of. But not really.

I'm surprised that you have found 10 inch long (25cm) screws for sale at Screwfix. I can't see any in the catalogue. I'd suggest that if the wall you are building is supposed to hold back soil (for example) then

50mm penetration depth may be insufficient. You're also going to have fun boring all of the clearance and pilot holes.

For a job like this I would use 12 inch galvanised spikes rather than screws and it will still require the drilling of pilot holes about 10 inches deep (all the way through the top sleeper and 2 inches into the lower sleeper).

These are the sort of things that I would use:

I also think you are going about this the wrong way. The usual way is to lay the sleepers with the 4 inch section vertical and to use twice as many sleepers[1]. I'd still secure them with spikes rather than with screws.

[1] Tell the wife she doesn't know what she's talking about.

[pete]

I'd think about using steel threaded rod. You can get it in lengths up to a metre, or more. Might have to use stainless for it's corrosion resistance. Use nuts at each end, sunk into the sleepers by a few cm. Then as a nice touch, if you can geta plug cutter large enough, make some plugs from the same sleepers to fill the holes.

It sounds like the high quote was to put you off as he didn't want the bother of the work. I expect he'd have sub-contracted it out for a couple of hundred quid, anyway.

[Steve Firth]

Stainless isn't corrosion resistant when it is in damp wood. Stainless suffers from crevice corrosion in these conditions and will have a shorter lifetime than hot-dipped galvanised.

[A.Lee]

snip rail sleepers 2 high.

Preferably, do not sink them in concrete. Leave a small gap under them that can be filled with gravel. The bottom will not be constantly wet then. Steel spikes are the thing to use to keep them in line. Drill through one, then sit it on the other, then hammer a bloody big nail through it into the bottom one. You wont get nails that long, so buy a length of steel bar and cut to an appropriate length. I'd suggest 4 inches into the bottom piece. You will need a long wood drill bit, at least the 9 inches I'd say, and preferably a mains drill to get through the wood. Alan.

[Dave Liquorice]

Are these new plain timber or new treated real sleepers? Plain timber won't last long incontact with the ground. Properly treated sleepers will out last you but will ooze all manner of sticky dark treatment that srains anything it comes into contact with. Probably not what the wife would appreciate... They need treating and treating well.

Have you tried shifting one yet? If they aren't a two man lift you don't have real sleepers. B-) So you are looking at 2 blokes wages for a day plus presumably materials (other than the sleepers). Did you specify to him the concrete bed etc, that would be another days work for two blokes to dig, a lay. 4 man days will make =A3600 of labour charge without too much bother...

Because of their weight I'd not be too bothered about 'em moving. Probably bore 3/4" clearance holes 18" to 2' from each end and drive some 2'6" to 3' lenghts of 3/4" rebar through and into the ground.

[Nightjar]

I would get some 4" x 2" or 6" x 2" treated timbers. Cut those to the height you want the sleepes, plus about 400mm and sink them vertically into the ground, in gravel filled holes. If you don't want to see the tops of the posts, sink them in deep enough to be covered by soil when the bed is made. Put more gravel down where the sleeprs are to go, say about 3cm deep. Then use galvanised coach screws through the uprights into the back of the sleepers.

Colin Bignell

[dennis]

You counter bore the hole so the screws/bolts go in more and hence protrude more at the bottom. To do this start with a larger flat bit in a power drill, when deep enough switch to a smaller one a bit bigger than the screw/bolt and go though. It also hides the screw/bolt.

You should be able to just put them on some gravel and maybe knock in a couple of stakes made from rebar to hold them there while you fill it. The stakes may well be enough to hold the whole thing together if you drill through both pieces and hammer in the rebar.

PS what is the wood and is it treated to stop rot?

[Matty F]

I'm a cheapsake so I would stack the sleepers so the corners overlap, and drill a hole down and hammer 16 inches of reinforcing steel in the hole. A bigger bodge that will probably work for many years is to drill diagonal holes and put 4 inch nails in them. If they are not real hardwood sleepers then you don't even need to drill the holes.

16 inches is not a great height to hold in soil.

[Huge]

On 2010-06-30, Nightjar

[Dave Liquorice]

A brace and (auger) bit would have no trouble drilling through, the biggest might be finding a bit that long, though thinking about it the ones I have are about 12" overall and only a couple of inches goes into the chuck of the brace.

[Tim Watts]

Ben Short wibbled on Wednesday 30 June 2010 01:38

Timberlock screws are a modern solution:

mate used them (or a clone product - looked just like those) and they were very easy to work with.

HTH

Tim

[Peter Parry]

A2/304 is the most common stainless steel used for studs and the sort used by

Screwfix sell both A2/304 and A4/316L stainless steel rod in 1m lengths at various diameters.

Either will last quite well in damp wood in the sort of application described where chloride concentrations will be fairly low. 316L/A4 is better in aggressive environments but is more expensive.

See

the stud thoroughly in Castrol Heavy grease or asphalt based roofing tar before use should ensure a useful life of over 10 years..

If in doubt you can ask the Stainless Steel Advisory Service on 0114

2671265

[Piers Finlayson]

Untreated soft-wood yes. Untreated hard-woods e.g. oak should last much longer - European oak > 25 years.

[Piers Finlayson]

When I get around to building some raised beds, I plan to use 2"x6" treated boards - I see no point in using more expensive sleepers. As I'm building them on a slope and want a level finish, I'll need to stack on one side. To achieve this I plan to use fencing stakes knocked in at the corners to fix to. I'll probably also do this in the middle so I have beds longer than the boards.

Seems like the lowest tech, easiest and possibly even the cheapest solution. It also will allow me to wrap netting around the posts should I need to - e.g. to keep rabbits out.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No. Oak may be better but you are looking a year or two at best IN CONTACT WITH THE GROUND.

fungal attack will start almost immediately.

Oak lasts well if it gets a chance to fully dry out, at which point any fungal growth stops. You can get hundreds of years like that. But once its almost permanently damp, its not better than any other hardwood really.

Raised beds need pressure treating, period, or accept that they will slowly rot from the inside..and the base. That's not an argument against them, just a note that over 5-10 year they may collapse.

If u want permanence, make them out of concrete blocks, and strap the wood to the outside for rustic effect ;-)

[The Natural Philosopher]

What we did here was use pressure treated 4x4 for corners and center supports and pressure treated split rail fencing stock for the edges.

It looks great, and although I don't anticipate a great lifetime - 5-8 years probably - that's OK as well, since these are vegetable beds largely, and that part of the garden is always on the move anyway.

If they rot, so be it!

[Jules Richardson]

Me too. Drill, then hammer some 1/2" rebar* through and into the ground. For 16" height I'd go for a mixture of vertical and diagonal I think. Sit the sleepers on a bit of gravel for drainage (and, given the height, toss some behind, too). I reckon it'll last for a few decades if the sleepers are treated - long enough that by then you might want to replace it with something else entirely anyway, and if not it's not a huge expense to just re-do it the same way.

• I can't remember if that term's used in the UK or if it gets called something else there?

cheers

Jules

[Jules Richardson]

Most of the pressure-treated stuff sold here these days seems to come with a replacement warranty against premature failure (anticipated lifespan depending on rating for in-air, ground-contact or below-ground;

30 years seems typical for in-air stuff)