Request for addition to a uk.d-i-y FAQ.

I totally disagree with this. Some of the most interesting threads have been OT. Perhaps you should learn to kill threads, and killfile posters you don't like? Hint - killing 2 very long threads takes 2 key strokes. Killing several dozen commercial posts takes somewhat longer.

I know how to do that, but it only cures the symptoms.

Is it OK then to cross-post to totally OT groups because "we might get some interesting threads", and if someone doesn't like them then they can always kill(file) them?

No, it isn't OK to do that. The difference is that the OT threads you dislike start off on topic, and drift off topic in the general flow of the conversation. That's how conversations work in real life.

I think what you want is for the ng to be a technical question/answer forum. That isn't what it is - it's a lot more of a community. And I think you'll find that's what keeps a lot of us coming back. If it was a straight q/a forum, I'd probably only pop in when I had a question, so would many others.

Did you note that the recent thread labelled OT was clearly about the basis on which we learn to produce and use technology - and pass on what works to others and later generations? ;-)

The thread that's sparked this idea, which you snipped, did not start on-topic at all:

"See the thread entitled "That most off of off topics:". It currently has *over six hundred* totally off-topic posts since Jan 26th., nearly 50 a day. Main contributors:

Posts: Contributor:

From my OP.

Absolutely. I have no problem with a bit of waffle. Threads such as the above are not acceptable though, IMO - 50 OT posts *per day*.

I only snipped it because I didn't recognise the thread, and was arguing in general. Having looked it up, I now remember seeing it and killing it straight off.

Was it totally off topic? I'm not sure - it's a builder-related joke. Are all jokes off topic? I don't know. But more importantly, I don't care - I saw that post when it was posted, and killed the thread. I saw none of what followed. That works just fine for me.

I genuinely don't get your gripe - I'd understand if threads like this were commonplace, and I was spending ages killing them, but they just aren't.

So what't the problem with a suitably-worded inclusion in the FAQ? Suggestions?

Sorry to have to reply twice - but how does killing threads fit in with the fact that, as you said yourself, drift may lead to interesting topics? I don't mind a bit of waffle at all, as long as the topic broadly "on". After all, there are

The point is it was *my choice* to kill that thread. The joke was old, and I (incorrectly) assumed that any discussion to follow would not interest me. As it happens, I'm now sitting here reading that thread :-)

Ironic isn't it? There are posters here who gladly jump up onto a political soapbox and create a seemingly interminable discussion about non-DIY topics and then moan about how little DIY actually gets discussed. I cannot find out who doled the advice "Read the post, sit on your fingers for five minutes before replying and then and only then reply." Nearly 70 posts in a couple of hours? Saints preserve us! The rising flood of garbage is making me wonder whether contributing to this group any longer has a purpose. If you want a political debate or something not really DIY effing well take it to email. It's not rocket science after all. Nobody listens to the wind, sheer quantity of posting tends naturally to dilute the quality. You only have to look at the volume of posting to know which global village idiots to ignore.

^^^^^^^^^

unwelcome and unnecessary

"Although thread drift occurs, there will be a point where it may be obvious to most people that enough is enough."

Perhaps if enough posters call time on a thread which has run its course the message will get through. Of course there are the persistent offenders but complaints to ISPs can be very effective.

John Schmitt

If it was in the thread I think it was, then I suspect the prevailing attitude was more along the lines of it not being necessary and/or not wanting to be involved in the hassles of running it; plus the question of what practical difference would it make to the newsgroup anyway if it did have a charter? (which I have to say is where I stand). I daresay that if you took the bull by the horns and started off an official charter proposal, then people would contribute and vote; however if it included stuff like

then I suspect it wouldn't get voted in anyway?

I have no particular beef about OT posts - they are far, far less 'intrusive' than commercial adverts and may even be quite interesting - and as has been said, it's easy to kill any thread you don't like. (If you ask me, the worst content on uk.d-i-y are the interminable and unbelievably tedious and childish "Oh yes it is... Oh no it isn't... Snip senile drivel" threads which rear their ugly heads every time someone submits a post with the word "boiler" in the title; but let's not go there).

David

Serious question:

Do you have a problem with your newsreader software?

On my system that entire thread shows as a single line - unless I choose to expand it and start reading. It may get 50 posts per day, but no one has to read them, wade through them, or even notice them if they are using their software to correctly thread postings. The tree layout also makes it trivial to ignore sub threads that have drifted to areas that are not of interest to you.

I would agree wholeheartedly with that.

I expect there would be insufficent people that mind the occational off topic or humourous thread to raise any consensus on this point. As Grunff said, I can't see why it is an issue - even if you choose not to kill the thread there is no reason for it to get in the way or cause you any inconvienance unless you have your software set to simply display all new posts in received order. Now that *would* be annoying I admit. It would also make following the thread of dicussion very difficult.

Personally I create a few automated filters for messages - that colour code and flag as "watched" any threads I have posted to. That makes going back to any conversation easy simply by telling Mozilla to show only watched threads. Some posters get colour coded differently if they for example have a history of posting useful stuff worth reading. Some (like the true spammers) get coded white on white!

So do I, as I have said. However, my beef is about huge long off-topic threads such as the one I've referred to. Do you approve of it?

No. I do not approve of the technique of "papering over the cracks", hence my other allusion to commercial advertising.

I might have misunderstood, but this looks at first sight like a classic mistake made over and over through human history. Banning alcohol didnt have much effect. Banning drugs hasnt either. Nor various other things. Quite simply, stating 'dont' is unlikely to make any significant difference. This makes the suggestion moot in my book.

Personally I'm not sure if it would really do our community any favours. It reminds me of free.uk.diy where, last time I looked, it was nothing but a quick Q&A exchange forum, with very little discussion of the replies or issues, and little apparent community or depth of interest.

free.uk.diy.nukes looked a bit more interesting, but there doesnt seem to be very many into that hobby, for some reason.

NT

I take it you mean simply implementing it? There would not be any on-going committment.

A charter is firm basis for business in a Newsgroup. We don't have one. We have a "FAQ", which does nothing in that respect. I could set up a "FAQ". Would it have real meaning? Yes! Just as much as the current one, anyway!

Is that a question, or a statement? I asked for alternative wordings to put forward. That (up there) is just a suggestion. What about "long rambling OT threads are depracated", or "Inane babble by stupids should be taken elsewhere" - or something that is formed as a concensus?

Of course, some OT postings *are* interesting, as are some commercial adverts. However, are *all* OT postings "interesting"? Are they to be encouraged?

As has also been said, that's just curing the symptoms.

You just went there. AOL. To be fair, the snipper of drivel is not the main part of the problem, IMO - think of the "Times Crossword" effect. One man spends a day making the crossword. Fifty thousand spend 20 minutes solving it.

Do you actuallu know *why* "free" groups are somewhat different cases?