Reglazing suggestions?

[TonyK]

Collective wisdon and suggestions required.

I have several very large stone mullion windows some of which have fixed panes of glass, some of which have wodden or metal framed openers in them. They are all well past their best, some with slightly cracked glass, rotten frames or leaking.

I'm thinking of reglazing the fixed panes with DG sealed units and using a bead around the edge which can be painted so not to stand out too much. But I think uPVC openers will probably look a mess with big (60mm) profiles etc.

Anyone seen a neat solution? Looking for something that is low maintenance (ie. does not need painting every few years).

Ideas?

[dom]

First question, is it a listed building? This will greatly affect your options.

If it is listed, you will probably have to preserve the original appearance, which will mean no sealed double glazed units.

If it isn't listed, you will probbaly have to conform to part L1B of the Building Regulations (Conservation of Heat & Power - Existing Dwellings):

Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings maybe a good source of advice: pvc and wood will never have lower enough profiles not to be visually intrusive (you don't say how narrow the panes are beteween the mullions - if it's down to 50cm or less, the frames will have quite an impact).

You could get steel frames custom made (e.g. from Crittalls

these will offer you the lowest profile of any frame. Nowadays steel windows have proper draft seals, can carry double glazed units and are available fully galvanised and powder coated from the factory - very low maintanence. These are especially good if you need opening lights with horizontal transoms - narrowest possible sightlines of any window (least visually intrusive).

Another alternative is to direct glaze into the stone mullions, using something like 6.4mm laminated glass. Glass is very cheap compared to windows, even the more specialist glass. It will look superb and just disappear into the stonework, downside is no openers of course. You'd probably want secondary glazing with that. If the windows are built into deep internal recesses that may be convenient, or it may be impractically difficult. The visual apperance of glass straight in stone is great though.

Finally if you go for DG sealed units, be aware that you can order the spacers between the panes to be other colours than the standrard silver colour - certainly black or white is available. They can also do a somewhat narrower band (less visually intrusive) than standard.

Standard DG units are now 4/16/4 (4mm glass, 16mm air gap, 4mm glass), so that's 24mm of depth plus sealing strips (1-3mm) plus the depth of the frame - given that has to be accomodated in the exisiting mullion, that may well tie your hands to a single glazed solution with secondary glazing from inside the room.

[Phil Anthropist]

Aluminium frames with double-glazed sealed units are narrower profile than upvc and can be fitted to a hardwood surround in the masonry opening.

[TonyK]

> The Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings maybe a good source > of advice:

Thanks for such a comprehensive (and useful!) reply. Thankfully the building is not listed and already has several uPVC windows ont he first and second floor. The ground floor is all stone mullions (about 450mm) centres. I could probably just about get away with 24mm for a sealed unit but it sounds like the openers will need a very ingeneous solution.

Sounds like you are in the trade? Any idea what a 450mm x 1200mm unit might cost using normal glass if I bought a dozen or so?

[normanwisdom]

Wouldn't bother with DG. Difficult to fit in small openings due to thick profiles, is obsolescent and will need replacing sooner or later and in any case is not cost effective in terms of saving energy. Most durable, least obtrusive, low maintenance and most attractive would be trad leaded lights. Can be set straight in to stone mullions without a frame. Openers with steel frames and leaded lights, wrought iron better if you can find a blacksmith to do it.

cheers Jacob

[manatbandq]

What's replaced it, then?

MBQ

[dom]

No, not trade, I'm converting an old chapel and made 17 large gothic arched hardwood windows for this place. Cost of glass was about =A3800 as I recall (59 sealed units, all 4/16/4 K-glass, 6 toughened, 17 arched shaped panes).

Very roughly, I'd say you were looking at =A340-50 for each sealed unit, probably about the same if you bought single glazed laminated glass panes to direct glaze.

However that will be totally dwarfed by the cost of the frames. Hardwood frames - you're probably looking at =A3400-600 each, then add

30% to fit them. Probably about the same for steel windows.

One other option (if you have some French) is to buy standard openers from one of the French diy sheds, and incorporate/adapt them to fit your needs.They seemed to have high quality units immediately available, in sizes very close to my needs,andpossibly to yours (i.e. tall/narrow).

For the 11 openers I needed, I bought oak framed tilt and turn units from LaPeyre

trimmed the frames down and built them up into the main window frame. La Peyre are regarded as the most upmarket of the French sheds (which are better than ours anyway). I'd seen what I wanted on a holiday trip, ordered on the web when I got home (you nominate which store - Calais in my case), they drop you an email to say they're ready to collect (2 weeks after order), went over to Calais to collect - loaded and away in 15 minutes. Even including the fuel/ferry costs I was still well ahead, and 9 months later still very satisfied with the quality of their product.

[TonyK]

No, not trade, I'm converting an old chapel and made 17 large gothic arched hardwood windows for this place. Cost of glass was about £800 as I recall (59 sealed units, all 4/16/4 K-glass, 6 toughened, 17 arched shaped panes).

Very roughly, I'd say you were looking at £40-50 for each sealed unit, probably about the same if you bought single glazed laminated glass panes to direct glaze.

However that will be totally dwarfed by the cost of the frames. Hardwood frames - you're probably looking at £400-600 each, then add

30% to fit them. Probably about the same for steel windows.

One other option (if you have some French) is to buy standard openers from one of the French diy sheds, and incorporate/adapt them to fit your needs.They seemed to have high quality units immediately available, in sizes very close to my needs,andpossibly to yours (i.e. tall/narrow).

For the 11 openers I needed, I bought oak framed tilt and turn units from LaPeyre

trimmed the frames down and built them up into the main window frame. La Peyre are regarded as the most upmarket of the French sheds (which are better than ours anyway). I'd seen what I wanted on a holiday trip, ordered on the web when I got home (you nominate which store - Calais in my case), they drop you an email to say they're ready to collect (2 weeks after order), went over to Calais to collect - loaded and away in 15 minutes. Even including the fuel/ferry costs I was still well ahead, and 9 months later still very satisfied with the quality of their product.

Thanks again. I'm going to go any talk to a local company who can make up units etc and see what options they come up with but it looks like I'll be going with direct glazing for most of the panes but there are 5 openers which are literally hanging off their hinges and the timber is completely rotten. I'll take a look at the French site, interesting as I spend quite a bit of time in France in the winter anyway so definately an option.

Cheers

[dom]

Final caveat, DG sealed units must be carefuly mounted to ensure that the sealant part doesn't remain wet - particularly from rain/moisture that creeps around the outside pane and settles in the bottom of the space holding the unit (the space has to be drained somehow). From here it can eventually make it's way inbetween the glass panes and cause misting. So direct glazing DG units is (as far as I'm aware) a non-starter. It's one of the areas pvc window frames actually are best

- even if not pretty. Check with a glazier, but I'd think they'd say single pane laminate glass is best, though I think you have to be careful about putties - as some can discolour the laminating layer in the glass.

If you want chapeter and verse on wooden windows, this is my bible:

(Document is free to view if you register).

[normanwisdom]

Obsolescent in the sense of tending towards being obsolete. From Latin obsoletus= grown old or worn out. DG units all fail sooner or later, usually sooner

[The Natural Philosopher]

Very much yes..because the company that made my leaded lights - somewhere in the cotswolds - started out making replacement steel frames windows for stone mullions..

Ah..

can have true leaded lights, or steel framed DG units with fake glazing bars..whichever.

The frames are galvanised and powder coated. No probs with them at all.