Porch conversion, do I need a second door.

a neighbour has just put a loo in her kitchen with just the single door, I queried the same thing (2 doors?) she said the regs had changed and its ok dunno if she fobbed me off on this one

Years ago I heard there was a regulation that there had to be 2 doors between a toilet and any area used for the preparation of food and, in fact, when we had a bathroom built on to the back of our house when I was a kid, they did put a small lobby between the kitchen and bathroom.

Apparantly this was a myth and there is certainly no such regulation in force now.

If you go to

It was never about fire anyhow - it was a hygiene thing.

Don't you need building regs for adding additional toilets to the existing sewer - I thought that I had seen this somewhere (perhaps a local requirement?).

Cheers, Mark

No. It *was* real (specifically, there had to be "a ventilated space" between them).

I think that is only true if the room with a loo has a sink as well (so you aren't tempted to wash your sh****y hand in the kitchen sink).

As you say, this was always about hygiene, not ventilation.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it looks like people are going off at a tangent. Are you saying that you will not have a back door when you convert your porch?

But this is irrelevant to the OPs question.

Read the post again and you'll see he's asking about whether he can block up the external door in the porch and replace it with a window for fire escape purposes, or does he have to retain the extra door?

MBQ

Yes - 'ventilated corridor'

Think now the regulations concentrate on the toilet - fume extraction and a wash hand basin, etc.

That isn't what he asked. He said he'd been told he needed a second door by a neighbour. From the phrasing it sounded like he assumed this was for fire regulations but didn't know. He never mentioned blocking up a door or even that there WAS an existing door. He asked if he needed a second door. He doesn't.

BTW - does anyone actually know what a "back porch" is? I am guessing it's some kind or lean-to/mini conservatory.

There was no ventilation in the little lobby. Still isn't. From what I've heard there never really was such a regulation, it was just an overenthusiastic interpretation of what was actually written. Not that it matters, it's clear now that no such space is required.

No need to "think", the regulations are there for all to read.

Read it again. In the context of a back porch, there will be an external door. He was told he needs to keep this as a second door to the house (in addition to the front/side door) as a means of escape. Otherwise, why would he ask about a window being sufficient as a fire escape? He's obviously not going to replace the door between the house and the new bathroom with a window! He didn't even say that the porch came off an area used for food prep so any suggestions of requiring a second connecting door are even less relevant.

We'll have to agree to disagree until the OP clarifies his request.

MBQ

I think you're right. The phrasing is not as clear as it might be, but there you go. Perhaps the wording of the question should have been 'do I need to KEEP the second door'.

FWIW my first house had only one door, mind you it was a back to back! A friend of mine bricked up the back door on his 3 bed semi so he could fit a better kitchen space, he had all the work approved by building control - but it's about 12 years ago now, so the rules might have changed.

Dave

In message , Geoffrey writes

Errr, a porch on the back (o rmaybe side if that is where the 'back' door is) of a house.

Hall there,

im back online. Thanks for all the input so far and sorry for no stating my question more precisley. The House I'm talking about is a cottage in the Scottisch Highlands. At the Moment there are two doors leading to the outsinde. One from the Kitchen / Diningroom, which is the door we use to go i and out. The second door goes from the hall with the staircase, into the bac porch, and then outside. The back porch is a small strukture, about 2 by 4 meters which wa added a long time ago, but which wasn't part of the original building

When the house was built, this would habe beenn the front door. But w never use it. Back to my question. Are ther any regulations stopping me from closing of this door? This would leave me with only 1 door to get out of, in a case of Fire (Plenty of big Windows though) My neigbour said that there were regulations, and in a way it make sense. Also all the Houses in the area have a front and a back door.

Regards, Erec

-- tfc715

Basically, in most cases yes.

Yes, that's exactly it. But it´s actually the old front door I´d b closing of. Same difference thought. 1 door left

-- tfc715

P.S. These are the English building regulations. Scotland may be different.

Christian.

This means that the escape route from the upstairs will be down the stairs and through the kitchen (or another room). I don't know the full Scottish Building Standards offhand (they are online...) but I would be very surprised if this is acceptable.

It is likely that it will be a job and a half to bring a "porch" up to building standards for a habitable room in terms of insulation etc. You might be better demolishing the porch and building a small extension with enough room for both the new bathroom and a passage to an external door.

Owain

It's academic now, but just to put this to bed, there was indeed such a Regulation. It first appeared in 1966 when the first national Building Regulations came into force. Quoting directly from the 1976 Building Regs, P3(2):

"No sanitary accommodation shall open directly into :- (a) a habitable room unless that room is used solely for sleeping or dressing purposes; or (b) a room used for kitchen or scullery purposes; or (c) a room in which anyone is habitually employed in any manufacture, trade or business.

This meant that there had to be 2 doors between a kitchen and WC, and the simplest way to comply was to form a lobby. P3(4) states the ventilation required within the sanitary accommodation (1/20th of the floor area or a fan giving 3 air changes/hour) but there never was any requirement for the lobby to be ventilated too. The idea was to form an air lock so that there was never less than one door open, but it was idealistic and this rule was dropped when they were re-drafted in 1984.

Peter

..snip..

Interesting to know - I guess we didn't need the lobby then as the bathroom was build in 1964