buying a house with a 'loft conversion' - what questions do I ask?

Hi all.

I'm thinking of buying a house which has had the loft converted into an extra kiddies bedroom with a Velux window.

I know it won't have passed the building regs because it only has a set of fold down stairs for getting up & down (although they are fairly substantial ones - not that this makes any difference).

To be honest, I'm not that bothered if it doesn't comply because of the stairs (though I'll probably get the vendor to get some indemnity insurance), and it would be a shame to not buy the house just because of this if it turns out the rest of it has been done safely.

Are there any questions I need to be asking regarding the strength of the floor and other aspects of the conversion and should I get the surveyor to specifcally look at these areas?

Also, given the circumstances, would a rope ladder be a good idea?

Thanks for any advice. Andy.

Reply to
Calla
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Look elsewhere. You may not have a problem but you might find it very hard to sell in the future. Also an insurer may well not be too happy.

Peter Crosland snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.co.uk

Reply to
Peter Crosland

It won't be safe, although this has nothing to do with floor strength or other minor points. The usual reason for avoiding Building Regulations on converted lofts is because the conversion won't meet fire safety standards. It's not unusual to find a completely unprotected stairwell and an open plan kitchen/living room.

If the conversion is being used as an office during the day this may be an acceptable risk. As a children's bedroom it really isn't. The loft floor hatch can't usually be closed from above so all combustion products from even a minor fire anywhere in the house accumulate in the attic, if you open the roof window you simple increase the intensity of the smoke and poisonous gasses as more get drawn into the room from below.

For a loft conversion you should be looking at an enclosed stairwell providing a route of escape to a lower floor exit and protected from other rooms by their doors. This would exclude staircases which exit into a lower floor room and ones with open treads. The most asinine conversions are found in early terrace houses where the kitchen door is removed (or the kitchen opened up into the main living/dining area) and the stairs opened into the downstairs living space. This allows fires starting in the living room and kitchen (where between them about 90% of house fires start) to send smoke straight up the stairs and trap the occupants of upper rooms and particularly the loft. With smoke pouring up through the floor hatch not many children will realise that safety is downwards through the smoke - not retreating away from it.

No, unless you train people to use them they are worse than useless in that they give an entirely false illusion of safety. Try climbing out of a Velux window, in daylight onto a rope ladder flat against the roof, it's very difficult. Now imagine trying to carry or persuade a young child to do it, in the dark while choking smoke is billowing out of the window.

Reply to
Peter Parry

Calla coughed up some electrons that declared:

Personally I wouldn't let anyone sleep up there (weight of bed, wardrobes etc assuming the floor hasn't been strengthened - and also the question of escaping in a fire) But as long as the house is sold and priced without counting that space as a habitable room, then at worst, you will simply sell it again as same.

I once looked at a house that was in a similar state. Unreinforced boarded floor (but on 4x2 old-fashioned joists so whilst not good enough as a room, also not totally insubstantial either); velux window and fixed wooden ladder.

I didn't find anything to worry about, it was priced as though without that space (ie similar price to all the other houses in its class in the same road) The vendors said that whilst it had been used as a guest bedroom, it was not a proper conversion, though there was scope to bring the floor upto scratch and put a proper staircase in. They just suggested that it might be useful for storage or a study area. Fair enough I thought.

So I would suggest that you check if the price is comparable to other houses where there is no claim of conversion. If the seller gets funny, then make a fuss about building regs. Otherwise, all you are buying is a boarded attic with natural daylight. What you do with it is upto you, as long as you remember to apply the same considerations to the next buyer.

Cheers

Tim

Reply to
Tim Southerwood

I would not really see a room accessed by a drop down ladder as a loft conversion I would see it as a very useful storage area, possible play area (mine has a second loft door that closes down on the top of the trap and years ago we had a scalextric layout set up there) and office space.

Tony

Reply to
TMC

Biggest Qs are: dimensions (all 3) and spacing of floor joists insulation of roof

If they have plans to which it was built, great.

When you sell you wont be able to describe it as habitable if non- compliant at conversion time. You may also want to look at means of escape for your own family's safety, there are a lot of house fires in UK. Domestic fire survival rates are very high, "In 1999 an estimated

466 deaths were recorded in dwelling fires and compares with 519 in 1998 and 562 in 1997" but no escape would change your odds much for the worse.

A lot of indemnity policies are worthless.

NT

Reply to
meow2222

As the others have said I would not countenance using it as a bedroom unless it was to appropriate fire standards.

I would suggest getting your surveyor to report on in what areas it fails to meet required specification and suggest whether it would be possible to bring it up to standard.

You may find that if the bulk of the work is ok, it would not be an undoable task to finish the job correctly and have extra space at a relatively low cost compared to doing a full conversion from scratch. (assuming the property price is realistic to start with).

(You neglect to mention how many storeys the property had before conversion (this has a bearing on the rules that apply)).

Reply to
John Rumm

above, if the rest of the work is safe I can complete the work after I've moved in which might work out cheaper than doing it from scratch.

The house is currently a normal 3 bed semi, so had 2 floors before conversion, and looks to be comparable in price to other semis without conversions (it is being sold as a three bed semi, not a four bed).

If I were to use the space for storage (assuming it is safe to do so - hence getting the surveyor to look at it) and not make any claim that it was an extra habitable room I completely fail to see how this could cause any problems if I come to sell the house. Perhaps you could explain how this could be so Peter?

Anyway, I think I would have to get it checked to see how well the already completed bits have been done so are there any considerations with regard to this bit (fireproofing under the floor etc.)?

Again, thanks for any advice. Andy.

Reply to
Calla

As the conversion adds a third storey, you need to comply with the full loft conversion regs.

If one sells it as adapted for better storage space then you have l;ess of a problem. If however you want to sell it as a four bed place then it needs to be done correctly with completion or regularisation certificate.

If the existing first floor ceiling is 12.5mm plasterboard and skim then the floor should be adequately protected (if not, another layer of plasterboard would fix it). According to current rules[1] you would need fire protection (self closers) onto the exit route from the loft. You would also need interlinked smoke detectors (mains powered) on each floor.

[1] or possibly previous - they have either changed recently or are about to so the requirements becomes fire doors rather than just closers.
Reply to
John Rumm

We bought a house 7 years ago that sounds similar to yours, 3 bed semi with the attic converted. The couple we bought the house from used the attic as an extra bedroom but obviously could only sell the house as a 3 bedroom with attic converted as storage space!! My daughter has been up there ever since we moved in. If we decided to move it would be the same scenario for us. We would have to remove her bedroom furnishings and sell as storage space. Not a big deal.

However we are in the process of fitting a permanent staircase and some more strengthening (why I don't know, as my daughter has had up to 11 pals in her room at any one time and there has been no sign of movement / cracking in the ceiling below). We don't plan to get planning permission as the only way we would be able to get a staircase in under regs would be to burst up through from another bedroom which would defeat the whole purpose. Instead we are doing what all the neighbours have done and fit a double winder staircase to get up to the loft from the upstairs hall.

Reply to
Steven Campbell

I am not a great enthusiast for elf and safety, which usually involves the pursuit of trivia; nor of the idiotic "think of the chillun'" which all to often substitutes for thought but the claim of "I've had my children up there and they are still alive" is on a par with "I store petrol in my kitchen under the cooker and it hasn't caught fire yet".

About 3-400 people a year die in house fires, perhaps more importantly about 3-5,000 are seriously injured in them. For many this means permanent disfigurement as well as other problems. People don't recover easily from burns, neither physically nor psychologically.

In most cases of deaths or injuries the fundamental problem is lack of escape. Sometimes this is deliberate - a locked door with no key to hand because protection against theft was "more important". Mostly it's stupidity. The stupidity which says it won't happen to me and the rules are stupid/excessive/irrelevant/jobsworth (fill in the gaps as appropriate).

I'm not sure how many dwellings there are in the UK but the chances of yours being involved in a fire are not huge. On the other hand, they are much greater than that of your child being abducted - do you let them walk to school alone or play outside every day?

I'm biased, I've found bodies in wardrobes where they went to hide from fires and the remains of a family trying to get out of a front door locked from the inside. Cooked people do smell like roast pork.

Would I buy a house with a shonky roof conversion and put someone to sleep in it? Quite simply, no. It simply isn't worth it.

Would I send children to school alone - of course, the risk is trivial and the reward in terms of independence and growing up significant.

I couldn't ever justify risking someone's life for the relatively trivial cost of providing an adequate means of escape. How someone could do it to members of their family is, to me, incomprehensible.

Reply to
Peter Parry

I agree with you but she would have more chance of escape out the 3 velux windows one of which is classed as "emergency escape/access" and onto the extension than if she was in our room that has double glazing with only 2 small windows that open!

Steven.

Reply to
Steven Campbell

Message-ID: from Peter Parry contained the following:

Our new house has a unofficial loft conversion as described, with a Velux window which gives access to the roof. While we don't wish to use it as a bedroom, isn't this a viable alternate means of escape?

Reply to
Geoff Berrow

Would a child stranded on their own think so? In the middle of the night wiould you climb out of the "chimney" through the smoke onto a roof in the hope that someone might rescue you before you fell off?

Reply to
Mogga

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:59:17 +0100, a particular chimpanzee, "Steven Campbell" randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

Nothing to do with planning, unless it's a listed building or you're raising the roof line in some way. Building Regulations, on the other hand, do apply to your existing/proposed works.

Why would that not comply? I presume your description of a 'double winder stair' just means a stair with 2 quarter landings or one half landing, which is perfectly acceptable, provided the normal rises, goings and headrooms are adhered to. As many people die from falling down stairs as from fires, so a dodgy stair is replacing one risk with another. It is also acceptable to provide access to a single room in a loft conversion using a 'space-saver' stair or a fixed ladder.

Reply to
Hugo Nebula

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 08:36:33 +0100, a particular chimpanzee, Geoff Berrow randomly hit the keyboard and produced:

The thinking was[1] that the structure of the floor and the fire door to the loft room would hold the fire back long enough for that person to be rescued; either the fire brigade or a neighbour with a ladder.

[1] This is no longer an acceptable solution in the guidance to the Building Regulations. It assumed that the rest of the family would evacuate and leave the child up in the roofspace to wait by the window (and not as Peter pointed out, hiding in a cupboard). I have spoken to a fire officer about this, and he told me that they had never rescued anyone in this manner; they had always gone up through the building.

The requirement is now that a fully-protected enclosure (30 minutes fire resistance and fire doors) be provided, either to the ground floor or to a point on the first floor that is separated from any accommodation and the person can escape from (ie, a suitable window).

Reply to
Hugo Nebula

Yes I think your description of the stairs is what we are looking at. Similar to this

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except it will turn 180o in a lot fewer steps. The builders we have had come in for estimates say it is too small a space to comply with regs and we would have to put in a straight flight of stairs that would start from another bedroom which kind of defeats the whole idea. Floor to Floor 2.4m Depth 1.4m Width 1.4m

I see your logic replacing one risk with another, as it is she has more chance of tripping and falling down the hole where the Ramsay ladders are at present. Incidentally she is 15. I wouldn't dream of putting any of my younger 2 up there.

Steven.

Reply to
Steven Campbell

If its big enough, it probably is.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Most of the point about the so called 'fire escape stuff is that a fireman with a breather pack on can gain access. Or at least that what the BCO told me, when I queried the fact that a slender person didn't need that much space and a fat person wouldn't likely be able to use it.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

That isn't the idea behind the current regulations.

The whole package of requirements - fire alarms, fire-resistant ceiling downstairs, fire-resistant doors upstairs, and an accessible 'means of escape' from a bedroom - is intended to provide a fire-resistant refuge upstairs, while the occupants wait for the rescue services.

Quite rightly, the occupants are *not* expected to climb out by themselves and then hang around like Spiderman.

Reply to
Ian White

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