Indeed, but it's for the generations that follow to do the forgiving, you just simply can't expect those who could well still be suffering to do so.
But it wouldn't have been right to do that 40 years ago either, you can't expect people who have experienced what they have to just wipe their minds of what's go before - if it was that easy victim support would be a doodle....
Not for cars. The French still make them. A pity they drop to bits though.
He did actually make it to Poland in the war and had to retreat to let the red army in.
He also loves Belgium (someone has to) and was there the night Brussels was liberated. He estimated 2000 people did the conga through a cafe that linked two streets. I am sure he once bought a Ferguson TV because it was made in Belgium. Of course everything now says built/assembled in the EU.
I think he will buy Korean without argument.
Adam
I know those countries have but it behind them. There were more Germans at Auschwitz paying their regards when I visited than there people like my Grandad.
I would say stubborn not misguided. There is no point arguing with an intelligent old man so let him buy what he wants even if quality is not an issue.
Adam
I saw a Dacia today. Now there's a special product.
That must have been some experience. My mother visited there shortly afterwards and still describes how women accused of collaborating had their heads shaved.
So there you are. There's always a way once you know the sensitivities.
Yes and no.
Of course. There aren't large numbers of people left like your grandad.
I go to Germany quite often, and have been doing so for over 20 years and on a first social meeting with a new contact it is very usual that they will raise the subject. It used to be that there was a bit of a guilt agenda behind this although it related to what parents had sometimes done. Nowadays it's an acknowledgment of what happened - not even a suggestion that "we've changed all these things so it won't happen again" . There are certainly educational visits to Dachau and such places and it's treated as part of history. I certainly didn't have the impression that it was being sanitised but there wasn't sackcloth and ashes either.
I would say principled. There are too few people who are willing to take a position on what they feel is important and to act accordingly.
I couldn't agree more. I'm sure that he's nobody's fool either and almost certainly realises that products from former adversarial countries are of good quality, but principle won't allow him to buy them.
It's a waste of time having such a discussion in somewhere like Curry's. They can't even manage to provide sensible customer service on their wide range of products, let alone taking customer buying criteria into account.
Here's a suggestion.
Next time he wantsto buy something, find a local retailer. Most of them belong to purchasing consortia in order to compete with the big boys anyway and pricing is fairly keen usually. If you do a bit of research including manufacturers, you can usually find something that will have been made in an acceptable country and won't be crap. He won't have changed the world, but this level of detail for someone with a lot of time with their thoughts won't go unnoticed.
I would be extremely disappointed if it were sackcloth and ashes. Over half a century, or a couple of generations, means it is definitely part of history. I believe they've still got the laws in place to prevent a similar thing happening again, and I think this is a good thing - learning from history is sensible (mmm, Afghanistan...), but otherwise it really is far enough away that it is well past the time to forgive and move on.
(now if one were eg berating the Japanese for some of their current cultural problems, I'd not be arguing so much...)
Regardless of what that position is? Having "principles" isn't necessarily a good thing - it rather depends on what they are. In this case it's fairly harmless - but not necessarily for others. (although some of the worse ones can be quite good for GDP)
clive
Forgive. Possible for most, not for some.
Forget. No, and that would be wrong...
The challenge is how to treat each.
One thing that I have learned over many years of traveling and meeting people in a wide range of countries and cultures is that it really isn't appropriate to berate them for theirs. They are what they are and I think that it's bogus to propose changes for the purposes of "betterment" (meaning do what we do). That's the behaviour of the chimpanzee in Pennsylvania Ave. Perhaps people don't actually want McDonalds, Starbucks and Nikes. Worst still, if they have had none of these, they aren't exactly a quality introduction to the western way and the global economy.
It's very noticable that as one moves outside of cosy Western Europe that the spectrum between the haves and have nots becomes very wide indeed. In the past couple of weeks, I've seen a little girl of probably no more than 5 dodging between cars at traffic lights with a squeezy bottle of water cleaning wing mirrors.
Of course.
Or bad.
For example, the operation of the Janus principle when buying things. The one face bemoaning the loss of UK manufacturing while the other wants to buy for the lowest price regardless of that.
BTW, I wouldn't apply this to Adam's grandad - that's quite a different set of issues.
Indeed - history isn't about forgetting, rather the opposite.
I suspect you may be thinking of different "problems" to those I'm thinking of. I was remembering what I've heard that being Gaijin in the country presents problems beyond the obvious language and cultural barriers. Not severe, but still relevant to the topic which started this subthread.
FWIW would you say that the significantly more severe problems which regimes like those in Burma present "are what they are", or are worthy of berating (though probably not while actually in the country...)
I sympathise with that view, but that's a different matter.
clive
Then I think it comes to practicalities.
Do I like the regime in Burma? Not really
Can I or am I willing to try to make a difference to it? Realistically no. Even this is after one removes the media slanting.
Do I want to visit or do business there? Not really. Europe, Africa and the Middle East are challenging enough.
None of us can fight every battle so I think it makes more sense to look at those where we can make some difference
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