Ping Bill (TV aerial issue)

Not unless the multipath causes the received digital pulses to fall outside what's called the guard band. In fact it can thrive on multipath. That's the principle behind DAB radio, there you have multiple transmitters all on the same frequency for a given mux. In principle that's no different to picking up a reflected signal along with the direct. Because the data stream is spread across multiple (thousands) of separate carriers, the data rate per individual carrier is very low, and the width of each pulse is quite long (in terms of time period). Therefore an additional pulse arriving on top of the 'wanted' (whether via reflection, or another transmitter) will have a zero or even constructive impact on reception, rather than destructive. That delay depends on a number of parameters that are applied, and the more data you wish to carry per mux, the shorter that 'window'.

For DAB, as long as another receivable transmitter is within a path distance difference of 80km, all is good. Clearly that's  not really an issue with reflected signals, so you can imagine the immunity. For TV, the distance is shorter, about 20km, again unlikely to be a common issue. There is the use on a small scale of SFN (single frequency networks) for TV in some areas, and the distances can be adjusted by applying GPS defined offsets, to 'steer' likely interference zones out of the way. Also the COM 7  mux (and the recently defunct COM8) is a national SFN (all transmitters use UHF Ch 55). However, its payload has been reduced to allow for 80km working

Reply to
Mark Carver
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Ok. So, an aerial sold to be good at ignoring multipath would actually be a *disadvantage* to Freeview reception!?

Ok.

So 'spread spectrum'?

Gotcha.

Sure.

Cool.

Clever.

Also clever. Thanks for the overview. ;-)

I'm still toying with the idea of seeing if I can get the COM7 Mux on my multi tuner TVHeadend rig.

I currently have 8 of the XBox DTB-T2 USB tuners hanging directly off an 8 port passive splitter (it looks like the ISS ).

On starting TVHeadend, it's interesting to see all the tuners tune to a different Mux, also allowing you to see the different signal strengths (I think are each doing a re-scan to pick up any channel changes). I think I see the 6 main Muxes at around 80% (strength) and LW at around 70%.

I don't see Com7 at all (746Mhz)? The thing I still can't get over is how I can get PSB3 (689.8Mhz) at 80%? That's some pretty fast roll off?

I think there was some thought that all the cheap / overlong fly leads I was initially using to hook them all up may have been causing the issue but with them out of the picture completely, it's looking more like the aerial?

So, (thinking out loud) I was wondering if was to stick a wider band antenna of some sort in just one of the tuners, if TVHeadend would know to use that, if I requested a channel off the PSB3 Mux, or if I had to manually 'lock' it to that, in case it was tied up recording something off one of the other muxes (that they can all get to) and so be unavailable?

Or just swapping the existing loft aerial for something that should cover Com7, even if it's only 'while it lasts', for the S&G's etc?

The thing is, I'm thinking that if the 700Mhz band gets re-allocated, if I might be better going back to the GroupA to offer more rejection to 700Mhz band?

Given I'm only 20 miles from CP, what sort of wide band aerial would you recommend (for loft mounting) OOI please?

A TV running of the same (aerial / distribution) system gives 10 out of 10 for signal strength on all the 200kw Muxes (and 8 on LW), so I'm thinking what's in there now (gain wise) can't be that far off?

I must try to get up in the loft and see if there are any clues on the current aerial as to what make / model it is and if the 'other one' I think I picked up [1] is still up there. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] From memory I think it was supposed to be more suitable for Freeview but didn't work as well as the existing one did (for the muxes available 'then') but may be wide band and actually get Com7.
Reply to
T i m

It's possible they are short cct proof (safe current limit) but many things that could remotely drive an amp have switches to en/disable the PSU, even if in soft setup.

I also agree that if 'Wolsey' is supposed to be 'good gear', 6 months doesn't sound very good, unless Tim just happened to be unlucky with lightening etc.

Another advantage of having the aerial in the loft. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

No because some signals might fall outside the guard band and thus constitute interference (reduction in signal/noise ratio), and there would be less protection against all other forms of interference, and because any benefit from signals received from a distant tx off-axis are not going to provide any significant benefit anyway.

DAB is a different case because the aerial is not directional.

Insignificant compared to the rejection offered by a filter.

Bill

Reply to
williamwright

A nearby lightning strike is as likely to damage a loft aerial and amp and an outdoor aerial and amp.

A direct strike on your house and the TV aerial doesn't matter. You're wondering where to spend the night, or kissing your arse goodbye if you're unlucky.

Bill

Reply to
williamwright

Mine is

Reply to
charles

Understood.

Ok.

Check.

By the 'addition' of a filter (low / band pass?) you mean Bill?

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

Oh, I would have thought a (typically wet, during a thunderstorm) roof might make a bit of a Faraday cage, protecting what was inside, compared with a lightening conductor of an aerial, up a pole on the outside?

Quite.

That was always a worry as a kid, when sleeping in a fibreglass cabin cruiser during a thunderstorm on the flatlands of Cambs / S/Nfolk and with my feet resting on 5 gallons of unleaded. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Reply to
T i m

oh well we can only wish...

Reply to
Jim GM4 DHJ ...

In message , T i m writes

No storms in the preceding few days.

There is no way a loft mounted aerial would get CP in this valley! We are marginal on a pole but Sandy little better. The Lea valley is where the coverage map changes from blue to grey:-(

Reply to
Tim Lamb

Ok.

I wasn't really suggesting that's where you should stick yours, just there are advantages if you can[1]. ;-)

This one looks to cover right up to Luton, other than any 'holes' (that could be where you are on that map). ;-(

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I'm about 20 miles away from CP (as the radio flies) and I make you less than 30.

Proof of the pudding of course ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] Many people could easily get away with a loft mounted aerial (especially if they aren't using the loft space) but don't, possibly because it's assumed they can't or 'convention' sticks them up as high as possible, even if it's not necessary.
Reply to
T i m

Directional DAB aerials have been a technical and commercial failure in the UK. The four element yagi commonly used is cut for the whole DAB band, from channel 5A up, so it is so wideband as to have very poor directional properties. The short log periodics that became popular had a tau factor that gave poor gain and thus directivity. Anyone who really needed a DAB aerial with decent gain and directivity had to use a German aerial intended for BIII TV.

Bill

Reply to
williamwright

Just a low pass filter. Or bandpass if you have one handy.

Bill

Reply to
williamwright

Direct strikes are rare. It's the momentary EMP induced on the feeder cable that does the damage. Usually you'll get a whole street with weird problems (ignition coil on mower open circuit, telly dead but physically unscathed, telly visibly wrecked, telly works but won't change channel, lots of aerial cables either burnt to cinders or looking OK but with a series of invisible shorts, external lighting that won't go off/ come on, garden Christmas tree on fire(!), car won't start, landline phone dead, cooker timer stuck on Jan 1st 1970, etc.

The strangest one was a co-ax running across a roof. The screen, dielectric, and inner were found naked on the roof. The outer sheath was parallel to this and a couple of feet away, and it was hard to see the melt and weld running along the outer that had allowed the insides of the cable to escape.

Oh, you're all right with unleaded. Lightning won't touch it...

Bill

Reply to
williamwright

Very true following digital switch over.

Bill

Reply to
williamwright

 They can also be detrimental, running the risk of providing signals from outside the guard band, that otherwise wouldn't be a problem ?

Although if they are directed at your 'local' DAB transmitter, the 'wanted to unwanted' ratio will be the same ? (if the unwanted signal is within the main lobe)

Viewing both scenarios they are of little benefit. Their use would be to receive a local mux from somewhere else, but that (because of case 1 above) might disrupt reception of your 'intended' muxes. I suppose the ideal solution would be to have a omni for 'intended' muxes and a directional for distant local muxes, with a switch to select accordingly ?

Reply to
Mark Carver

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