Part-P Inspection - How does it work?

[Mike Harrison]

A while ago someone claimed it was illegal for the council to demand additional payment above the building approval fee - is this true or not ?

[Andy Hall]

This is not what the legislation or the guidelines say at all.

You are pulling ideas out of the air.

The contractor needs to have done the work in order to self certify it. How can he do that legally if part was not done by him?

The legislation is poorly drafted as a result of government incompetence and doesn't have the latitude that is in comparable legislation relating to other areas of building regulation.

[Doctor Evil]

Does it say "all" of it has to be done by him? By connecting the ring to the CU he has worked on that ring. He installed some wire to the installation.

Any Tom Dick and Harry can connect up a boiler on a site, even the gas runs, and leave the gas pipe unconnected at the meter. A Corgi man comes connects and tests and all is fine. It is done regularly on sites, mainly using eastern European labour. The same thing applies.

More Lord Hallisms. Have you any proof of this? You have been told about making things up. Having safe electrical systems and eliminating cowboy operators is a great idea.

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[:::Jerry::::]

But Part P does neither, all it does do is drive up the costs of the lagit' company and that of the 'duty-full' / competent DIYer ! :~(

It would be nice to think that come the morning of the 6th of May a lot of Prescott's follies would be instantly repealed, well we are still allowed to day dream - I think...

[Andrew Gabriel]

Sorry to say, but that alone does not satsify Part P. Specifically it is missing the inspection at first fix, which for most domestic wiring installations could not be done restrospecively after final fix.

[John Rumm]

No not really. The underlying requirement of the gas legislation is that of "competence" (even if it does not go on to define it), the secondary requirement for guild membership kicks in only for work done for reward.

With part P there is not requirement that the work be carried out competently - only that it be certified by someone who is a member of a relevant organisation, or that it is allowed by exemption.

Since the government itself had to come clean and acknowledge that the basis they used as justification for the whole mess was actually flawed (i.e. because they did not understand the distinction in their own stats between fixed wiring and portable appliance accidents), you can't really hold out much hope for the rest.

Yes indeed I agree. Alas part P does none of those things. It does however encourage dangerous practices that will result in more casualties.

The cowboy will ignore it. The semi competent DIYer who may have in the past contemplated a safe but now outlawed modification is offered the choice of make the problem fit a "minor work" solution (at potentially reduced safety), or spend loads of extra money either "getting a man in" (of unknown competence), or having a building control office sprinkle holy water on it.

If the stated aim of the legislation is to reduce deaths and injuries due to electrical fixed wiring, and it in fact achieves the opposite then I would suggest that "poorly drafted" and "incompetent" are perhaps being a little too kind. Criminally negligent would be closer to the mark.

[Andrew Gabriel]

I didn't claim it, but I do remember reading it on one LA's website. It didn't actually use the word 'illegal', but did say something like the fee paid to BCO had to be inclusive of all inspections. I also recall reading the ODPM caps all the BCO fees, which combined with above would imply total cost including inspection is capped. (Anyone know what the cap is?)

Also I noted the inspection performed by/for BCO does not have to be performed by a Part P registered person/company; that's only the case for self-certified inspections. It seemed to me the BCO could choose to accept your own inspection, if they were sufficiently satisfied you were compitent.

[Andy Wade]

Nice to see the ODPM encouraging safe working practices, not.

[Stuart]

And I see we are to have nice new colours for cables to match flex ... Stuart

Shift THELEVER to reply.

[Andy Hall]

Unfortunately not. It is not written in the same way as that relating to gas.

In definition 0.6 of the Approved Document for part P it clearly says

*all* electrical installation work. There are the clear exemptions for minor works and for extra low voltage, but that's all.

The evidence is plain to see.

- There was no reason to do anything legislative in the first place. The government decided that it wanted to put regulation in place and deliberately ignored any comments and evidence to the contrary. The reality is that the whole thing was pushed by the trade associations and commercially interested players and power brokers, and the power drunken idiots in central government fell for yet another opportunity to legislate.

- The whole thing was totally mismanaged in that it took two attempts at Statutory Instrument Amendment to remove some of the completely ridiculous things that would have been included such as installing a battery doorbell. Local authorities were equally disorganised and unprepared and proper guidelines on how to operate the scheme were not given in good time. There is a whole raft of hastily constructed and ill thought out memos from central government departments as the stupidity of the whole thing was realised.

-

Your inconsistency amazes me.

On the one hand you think that this is a great idea and by implication the trade associations associated with it; while on the other you are daming of CORGI at every opportunity.

Do you have a short memory or do you imagine that people are unable to recognise that you are speaking from both sides of your mouth?

[Andy Hall]

I know, I noticed that too.

There's the stranded earth in the T&E as well.

It really does demonstrate the lack of knowledge on the part of the producers of this nonsense legislation and/or their contempt in the assumption of stupidity on the part of the reader.

[Doctor Evil]

And when caught prosecuted. The deterrent.

Minor works involves Building Control. This "potentially reduced safety", you are on about. Can you elaborate?

"in fact achieves the opposite" Any facts to back this up?

The Tories are going to lose you know. Just as well as you will be better off.

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[Doctor Evil]

Any evidence to prove this?

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[Andy Wade]

Well, if it's 6mm^2 or larger it will be stranded - but you have a point: the picture shows an _equal_size_ CPC that is distinctly off the centre line of the cable. It's obviously been done by a marcomms or PR agency and no one's thought it necessary to have it checked by anyone with a molecule of electrical knowledge.

[Doctor Evil]

installation.

< snip Lord Halls opinions with no evidence. >

It seems many things amaze Lord Hall.

I know one kid who went on a Corgi course. To get your badge you need a letter from a company to say you have a had I think 6 months experience. His dad was self employed and took him along for 6 months. He is now out by himself. Some unsuspecting person will think he is fully experienced. I would never allow him near my house. That is corgi for you.

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[Tony Bryer]

No deterrent at all IMO. No doubt you could use the Freedom of Information Act to find out how many people have been prosecuted for failure to comply with Building Regulations - my guess would be that it is a few hundred a year at most. Has anyone been prosecuted for a DIY window replacement since 2002 - my Wickes has plenty of windows and I doubt whether more than a few of those bought are installed following a notification to the LA.

In my 8 years in Building Control I was responsible for taking two people to court. It takes a huge amount of time and is likely to result in an award of costs to the LA that does not begin to cover the real cost, and in the meantime you've not been doing what you're meant to be doing, out inspecting work.

The people I would expect to be caught by Part P are kitchen - and to a lesser extent, bathroom - installation firms who are not renowned for the quality of their work in this department. If you have a dispute with one of them afterwards then Part P may well give you a useful stick to beat them with if they've ignored it.

But generally I think that the aim of Part P - greater safety - is laudable, but the means of achieving it is doubtful at best. Requiring inspection reports on electric and gas if you are selling a property would make far more sense. In rented properties gas has to be recertified every year, and IIRC electrics every 5 years in Scotland. Privately owned dwellings may go uninspected from decade to decade.

[:::Jerry::::]

eliminating

How about reading the said regulations ?... Doh!

[John Rumm]

Yup and as a result he can now pay for their scheme that will allow him to self certify electrical work under part P...

Don't you feel safer already?

That's part P for you.

[Mike Harrison]

I spoke to someone recently who is very involved in building control legislation - apparently it was long while after the whole part P idea started, and too late to sop it, before anyone at the ODPM was told that testing an installation was any more involved than plugging something into a few sockets.....

[Doctor Evil]

experienced. I

The aim of Part P is to keep cowboys out. It is geared for the pro to do the work, but does specifically state where DIYers can operate. It is quite specific. While corgi allows any Tom Dick or Harry operate with limited experience. The DIYers can be "competent" with gas, whatever that means.

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