Overcharging builders advice

[Duncan]

I recently employed a building firm to do some work on my property. Unfortunately, despite them being recommended and being FMB registered, they turned out to be cowboys. They didn't turn up for very long, and hardly worked when they were there. I was busy at work, and so couldn't keep an eye on them, but my neighbours on either side did. They managed to turn what should have taken a few days into nearly two weeks. Eventually, one of them did a ridiculous bodge and tried to pass it off as okay when asked to put it right. At that point, I asked them to stop work and not come back. In order to avoid any legal business, I agreed to pay for what work they'd done. That left a very large job on the original estimate not done. I was happy to get rid of them - then I got the invoice :(

They are basically asking for the majority of the complete figure as payment. It's over three times what it should be for the work, and not an inconsiderable amount. They'd not stated what work they were claiming for, so I wrote back asking them to state the individual work and costs to justify the amount, saying I'd be happy to pay fair costs. They then wrote back saying that it was estimated work, and so each job wasn't recorded, but did list the work. They reiterated their ridiculous sum was "very fair" despite leaving a very small sum for the work they didn't do (I've a quote from another builder for the same job they didn't do, and it's a number of times more).

I'm not sure what to do next. Unfortunately I only got an estimate from the builders, which was a breakdown of the jobs and a single figure, and I verbally agreed to the work based on that. If I'd got a proper quote with the individual jobs itemised I'd not be in this trouble. Lesson learned.

I'm considering giving my own breakdown of costs, and saying I'd be willing to pay for that. But I'm pretty sure they'll not accept since they seem determined to rip me off. Should I just wait to be taken to court for non-payment and see what happens?

Thanks,

-Duncan

[Peter Andrews]

My sympathies - go and talk to a solicitor or Citizens Advice. When I had a dispute about residential fees for respite care (I booked two weeks but it was so awful I took mother out after 2 days). Received invoice for the full two weeks - solicitor suggested making a 'without prejudice' payment for 4 days, which I did and never heard from them again. As I understand it you should make a 'reasonable payment' and then wait for them to sue. If you haven't paid anything they will have a much stronger case - but I say again seek advice, a £100(?) for a solicitor may be good value.

Peter

[Andy Hall]

Your next move should be to obtain two quotes for the remainder of the work including remedying anything the first didn't do.

You could have asked for quotes for the complete job, but it's probably too late for that and in any case another builder would probably figure out what the issue is.

Then your financial position becomes the total that the original builder first quoted less the quote for remedies and completion from the other.

If you haven't paid them the net of that, then you should.

After doing so, is the total sum that the first builder believes he is owed less than £5000?

If so, then he would pursue you through the small claims procedure, and definitely I would let him attempt that.

Make sure that any communications are made in writing and send them by Special Delivery (£4 at the post office). This gives traceability if you need it.

Finally, take copious photographs of any bodges, incomplete work and anything not completed to perfection.

[Duncan]

You're right. Investing some cash in legal advice would be a good idea. I'll look into "without prejudice" payments.

Thanks,

-Duncan

Peter Andrews wrote:

[Steve Robinson]

When obtaining the other quotes make sure that you use builders of a similar size if possible to get reasonable comparisons

no point going to court with a quote from a one man band whos not vat registered when the company you originally employed may have a large workforce and will be registered for vat two totally different animals with two totally different cost structures .

It may help to get a report from a surveyor and an estimation as to the likeley costs you will pay , a reasonable guide to the cost for works is produced by hutchins in the form of price schedules if you dont want to go the surveyour route

As a rough guide the average charge out per day for a self employed tradesman will be around £120 to £160 per day plus vat , small to meduim sized companies add around 20% to the above costs , london add

50% minimum

Average working week will be 38 hours , this may well include travelling time from the yard and collection of materials

Would your neigbours be prepared to go to court and state that the builders were sitting around all day not working and are the neigbours sufficiently qualified within the building field to make those judgements

[Andy Hall]

That would not matter unless the builders were being paid on a time and materials basis.

If it's a price for the job, then time is irrelevant within reason.

This is not the most important aspect of the claim.

[Alan]

you do what i done in similar circumstances, get a quallified surveyer in but firstly tell them you are not paying a penny until you have seen his report and taken his advice, you may find as i did he will tell you not to pay due to the poor and unsatisfactory workmanship and / or materials if that happens give them a photocopy of his report and give them 28 days to put the work right (to your surveyors satisfaction "not yours") you could also take legal advice as to the amount you should pay assuming that they return and put things right which the possibly will not do this may cost you

2 or 3 humdred pounds or so but consider what it is going to cost you the other way including paying some other builder to rectify the work so far and paying them what they ask also, you still need to get the remainder of the job completed, if they offer any veiled threats inform the police and after a quiet word they will fade away

[Duncan]

Actually, the work remaining was outside and needed doing before the weather got bad. I found another builder to do the work, but he was a small 2 man outfit, and did the work pretty cheaply. Also, the work needed was changed after the original estimate, so the work he did didn't have matched the original quote. But I do have an old quote from a few years ago for exactly the work as stated and by a comparable building company. Another quote would have been handy, but the works done now, so I guess it's too late...

There's some internal work done by the original builders that's not great, but it's not something that'll be too hard to fix. I'm not too bothered about extra cost there.

It's possible that the neighbours would state in court the time wasting of the builders, and they're a retired electrician on one side and an engineer on the other. But I don't think that will effect things unless the builders try to justify their costs based on time spent.

Thanks,

-Duncan

Steve Rob> When obtaining the other quotes make sure that you use builders of a

[Duncan]

The amount the builders are asking for is less than the £5000 small claims limit, so I'd expect they'd pursue that route. Unless they decide to try and frighten me into paying...

Thankfully, I did take a plenty of pictures of everything before and after the new builders started work.

Thanks,

-Duncan

Andy Hall wrote:

[Andy Hall]

Changing the spec. after the original quote was agreed does weaken your position because it allows the builder to claim a higher price than the original.

Was your old quote itemised? That would at least allow you to compare the work by proportion. Otherwise, the current builder can argue that the old quote isn't relevant because it isn't recent.

I think that's true, but the builder will try to argue that the extra time was because of the work you added after the original quote.

There are lots of variables here. I would discuss with a solicitor.....

[Phil L]

what difference does it make if they were hanging around drinking tea all day instead of working? - they weren't charging you by the day.

[Jonathan Pearson]

Surely the most sensible option would be to pay nothing for now and await the findings from your FMB's Dispute Resolution service

Jon

[Andy Hall]

I sincerely hope that they wouldn't be that stupid

That was certainly a good move.

Some years ago I had a run in with a conservatory supplier who a) didn't do what he said he would do and b) did some collateral damage.

I initially withheld about £8k in order to get the attention of their head office (the incompetence had been mainly due to poor supervision at local level).

Their opening gambit was to try and nickle and dime me down using an insurance loss adjuster. I didn't buy that one and stuck to my guns.

At the point that legal action was threatened I sent several *very* long letters to their solicitors with copies to board members and directors asking for point by point responses. This took a lot of their time. I then paid them suffiicient money to make their claim £4995 and of course this did not go unnoticed.

In the end, they dropped the case on agreement to pay a further small sum and my agreement not to name them.

So the short version is, if you feel that you have a good case and the evidence to back it up, stick to your guns. In the worst case, it is unlikely that they would be awarded the entire balance anyway.

[Duncan]

The spec change was for the work not done, so they shouldn't be able to claim more money. The original quote less a figure for the work not done should come to the amount they're owed.

The old quote was itemised, but doesn't include comparable work for that which was done. But there is a figure for pricisley the work that wasn't.

They've not made any mention of extra time yet, just simply the work items they did do from the estimate which somehow costs X.

I think you're right. I'll try and talk to Citizen's Advice tomorrow and see if they can suggest a solicitor.

Thanks,

-Duncan

[Andy Hall]

These people could be worth a phone call as well.

[Duncan]

I'm not sure. I think if I was withholding money because of poor workmanship, that would make sense. But I don't know if they'd have much say in misappropriate work costs? I guess it's worth looking into.

Thanks,

-Duncan

J> Surely the most sensible option would be to pay nothing for now and await

[Jonathan Pearson]

Might be worth a try though - did the builder follow the procedures described in

not - it may help your case!

Jon

[Duncan]

Thanks. That description bears little resemblance to how these builders operated!

-Duncan

[Stuart Noble]

If you've paid them for what they did, put the bill in the bin and forget about it.

[Duncan]

I spoke to a solicitor via my building insurance's legal help line. Their suggestion was to send a "without prejudice" payment with the necessary legal incantation to mean that their cashing the closes the matter. Then see if they take the money or sue. In which case I'd have to counter sue. I guess that's what I'll do...

Thanks,

-Duncan