Outdoor radiant (IR?) heaters - experiences?

[Richard]

<snip>

Perhaps.

[T i m]

<snip>

Just theoretical examples that could have the impact I was referring to at the time? ITRW, the impact of just David, you or I running a couple of kW of IR heaters isn't likely to tip the system over the edge but I would suggest we were not 'wasting' as much of the energy (that's the point in question) as an outdoor IR heater (especially you in yer super-insulated building [1]). No probs (re energy wastage) when there is plenty of supply, even if David wanted to run IR heaters around the entire garden ... unless they had to fire up a coal fired station to cover the 'overload' and you happen to live near it etc.

What do you think John? <sigh>

The point is, at any point in time we generate X energy and as soon as demand is >X we are in trouble. I think most people would be pissed off if the power tripped that drove your artificial lung or dialysis machine because the guy next door turned on his garden heaters.

Where have I questioned the issues of the supply. I have only questioned the issues caused when demand outstrips supply and because of the conspicuous consumption of a minority.

For the benefit of this conversation, it would make it 'less bad', yes.

'Of course', depending ...'

As is mine?

Ok.

No, but the fact that it continues to stay warm *AT ALL* is exactly what I'm talking about. See, you are trying to justify the use of a hot air balloon that has a big hole in the top by just turning the burners on longer and I'm saying you shouldn't have the leak in the first place.

And you have insulated it appropriately and (the background heating) is also there (I suspect) to prevent equipment going rusty?

Exactly. You have made an effort to mitigate the losses (for both practical comfort / equipment) by doing something sensible (insulation). You don't leave the door open and turn the heating up.

Agreed. My workshop is used even more infrequently so between uses (in the winter) I cover the lathe and protect anything that might suffer from the cold / damp.

Yes, because even if only an hour, more of the heat from the IR heater will reach you when indoors and less of the spilled / convected heat will be instantly disappearing for the other 59 minutes.

Understood. I've only got a small layer of insulation behind the ply on 3 sides and nothing in the corrugated cement fiber roof but the place has reasonable thermal mass because of everything in there (steel tools / machines / stock etc). I intended insulating the roof but it's partly done by everything in there. ;-)

But they do that to save money not energy (in that case). Plus a bit towards 'dark skys' etc.

Sure, and I have no intention of reporting David to the 'Energy police' whatever he does. Just my advice of 'wear a coat' or the extension of 'have you explored other social arrangement options' (like video-conferencing) etc?

Cheers, T i m

[1] eg, You would have as might right to *suggest* I better insulate *my* workshop to retain more of the heat spilled from my IR heater. That's partly why I only even run mine on the lowest setting (1 of 3 bars) and make the most of whatever comfort that provides.

[T i m]

Hey, we now just call it 'having a character' or being 'a bit eccentric'. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[Richard]

Better that than being a knob I guess.

[T i m]

<snip>

I was talking of the triads and how they were formed into triangles and alternate ones inverted for greater density:

It was my memory mixing the 3-in-one gun and the pixel layout.

Very similar, pictures made up or a series of discrete dots (unlike an oscilloscope or high persistence tube in an old RADAR screen where it's a uniform coating.).

Yes, there were differences, still doesn't not make it 'like' ...

Isn't the point that you can and what the grid / aperture masks were about. Or did it just make the beam spread better (tighter)?

<snip>

We had a CRT 'Monitor style' Sony Trinitron TV (21" I think) for many years (and I repaired it several times with guidance from my TV repair shop owning mate) and everyone commented on how good the picture was (for whatever the technical reasons were). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

<snip>

Some turkey facts while you are doing so then.

The turkey you will be eating at Xmyth is a baby, probably hatched around August this year. So 4 months into what should be a 10 year lifespan.

They can vocalise about 20 different sounds and each one sounds different and that's how they help recognise each other.

They can learn the details of an area that covers about 1000 acres.

Wild Turkeys can fly at 50+ mph and they roost in trees.

Domestic Turkeys can't fly.

Turkeys are intelligent,

... social and form strong bonds with each other.

They have been around for more than 45,000,000 years (in spite of man nearly hunting them to extinction). Man has been here a mere ~300,000 years.

Turkeys can run at around 25 mph.

Turkeys can swim.

However, about the only thing most people know about Turkeys is what their cooked flesh tastes like (humans can't eat their flesh raw, they don't have the teeth nor digestive system for it and obviously couldn't outrun one to catch it) and fewer just know what temperature to cook them at and for how long.

It *needs* to be cooked sufficiently to ensure you aren't ill from salmonella and campylobacter that most poultry are likely to carry.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Aww, don't be so hard on yourself! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[John Rumm]

However the (say) 1kW heater has consumed 1kWh in both cases. I have been warm in both cases, and 1kWh of energy has been lost to the environment in both cases.

I stuck 2" PIR under the rafters as well since the roof was slate over sarking and no other insulation (no loft - roof pitch visible from inside)... so the floor and SG window are the biggest heatsinks.

Its both - but they tout it as a environmental thing (in fact the local council rejected turning them back on, even when residents offered to pay the cost of the lekky to have them back on)

I use mine to take the chill off until the fan heater has got the room air temp up to about 15 :-)

[T i m]

True, of any heater installation under most circumstances when seen over a prolonged period. These two however will be very different in the amount of energy wasted in-the-moment from the outset.

Outdoor temperature 10 DegC, in your workshop, the same.

30 mins in, the person in front of the outside heater will still be exposed to 10 DegC around all their body, except the bits that are exposed to whatever heat is reaching them (that hasn't been blown away), you are receiving all the heat and the workshop is now 12 DegC etc.

<snip>

The pitch of my roof is quite shallow so the space in there restricted / precious. Unless I could find something to stick to the inside of the corrugated panels directly I would probably have to batten it out to a degree (losing more space) and risk damaging anything I fitted on top of them (Kingspan etc) as I pulled out long steel stock.

I have those as well.

I guess if the street lighting load required a fossil fuel power station to be running to cover them (given they can be turned off without any immediate issues, unlike say traffic lights) then it could be 'environmental'?

<snip>

When the workshop was more empty I used to use one of those portable Calor Gas heaters (the big one on wheels with a 15kg bottle?) and that worked pretty fast / well, apart from the water vapour and fumes requiring some ventilation (and so loss of heat). A 3kW fan heater was ok if I was going to be down there a while and doing something that needed some dexterity, like metal turning or a carb clean.

When I had half a garden full of split ash I was thinking of fitting a wood burner in the workshop but being in a smokeless zone, the increasing issues re their pollution and the faff of cleaning, lighting and feeding one, I gave the wood to a couple of mates instead.

The pedestal IR heater is fine till / if I get better insulation in there but it does make some difference to the ambient temp in there, as commented on by the Mrs when she brings a cuppa down and says, 'It's much warmer in here than out there' and the heater is 18' from the door. ;-)

My previous lathe, bandsaw and pillar drill were in the middle bedroom (= indoor workshop), no problems keeping warm or condensation. The things you give up for your kids ...

Cheers, T i m

[Spike]

Try googling "long wave infra red", which is what the IR is designed to produce.

The workshop temperature rising from 10deg to 12deg is an incidental benefit of the inefficiency of the IR heater, not the main reason for its function.

Keep in mind that depression is linked with a hyperactive right hemisphere, with evidence of selective involvement in processing negative emotions, pessimistic thoughts and unconstructive thinking styles.

[Nick Cat]

there's a limit to how much idiocy I want to waste my time on, and you sure have a habit of exceeding it.

it was you that quoted that study. Did you forget?

its in your reference right there 3 lines up, which you were using to try to establish your position. Forgotten already?

as if

so no, I didn't claim that and you're talking bs

there's irony

they aren't and if you miss the relevance, whoosh

obviously it does

they changed enough for the public to buy into them. I already said how. Keep up.

The public had no difficulty understanding something so trivial.

not really. I'd they'd been marked as 40w equiv instead of 60 people wouldn't have been so disappointed.

no I mean trying to win votes. As I've made clear already.

yeees

they weren't taken up enough to solve anything

why would we generate more than we can consume? Does any country do that?

just getting real If the people wanted to use them they'd have done so. The govt extorting our money and giving us bulbs that few used was just another wasteful gesture at everyone's expense. Funny how HMG loves to do that.

Sure. We do agree occasionally, worrying as it is

that's not my position and I've not claimed it is/was

it hasn't achieved anything else.

the amount generated is of no consequence. Peak consumption is evening meal time in winter. How much are they generating then?

a) lack of basic engineering knowledge b) wanting to pretend they have answers they don't to win votes

who do you think voted for them?

was there a point?

how ironic

your green nonsense

correct

lol

that really isn't the issue.

the green junk you talk

keep up

that's not a level of efficiency

heat transfer is pitifully low

No, I don't.

you came out with a whole pile of green political stuff

no, really.

We agree partially on the conclusion re outdoor heaters for wildy different reasons. We're nowhere near sharing a pov on your political stuff.

[Nick Cat]

yup, round dots in a triangle pattern

the point is that you can't

the delta ones were just to make the colour beams work the Trinitron had the upsides I mentioned plus greater output

the ones above.

[T i m]

Exactly what I said then and that you said 'no mainstream tube used triangles'?

<snip>

So, three dots arranged in triads and to be illuminated be a electron gun 'firing' though either a grid or aperture mask couldn't illuminate single pixels (according to you) but the same mech didn't illuminate either of the other two colours with the same gun?

The gun we will call 'red' fires a beam of electrons though a mask that defines the focus of the beam so that it can illuminate *just* the red dot, 1/3rd of one pixel but you are saying it can't do that(nor that defined) yet it doesn't also illuminate the blue / green dots right next to it from the same pixel or the others next to it? If it did the only pictures you could display would be of blurred snow?

I don't know, I'm asking for you to explain what you have stated as it doesn't make sense.

Yes, ignoring any side effects / upsides, can any of the colour TV CRT mainstream systems illuminate a single colour dot within a triad or not?

<snip>

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

<snip>

More likely you did down to bedrock and realise you can't dig any deeper?

No, I didn't but I quoted it in reference to you being one of the 72% of the public who doesn't have a clue? Why did you quote it back to me?

If only you spent more time trying to understand the words I'm saying and not trying to take everything off on some political / green accusation / rabbit hole, you might get on better.

I wasn't making such a specific link. I was saying that we (in general) are often under hosepipe bans and the like because of demand potentially outstripping supply and therefore the idea of wasting water would be antisocial (as that was the spirit of my (our even) replies to outdoor heaters.

You then tried to deny any water supply issues in the UK?

Time will tell eh.

Nope, I said 'Or are you' ... because I know how slippery you can be when put on your back foot.

Fact mate. Happens with you over and over (and not just with me). You could be a 'moony' as your mood / attitude / sense seems to wax and wane with the phases of the moon. ;-(

What, they aren't *today* you mean, or they never have and you predict, never will? This continues to expose the problems when trying to engage left brainers in a discussion that isn't black and white. You simply can't cope.

Obviously to you I'm guessing as it certainly doesn't here.

How, how have CFL changed that changed their appeal to the public (as being a key point re their take up)?

Oh the irony.

Bwhahahaha. You really ought to get out more mate.

Yes really.

For the subset of those people who were you mean? We had a CFL from the very early days and it gave just the amount of light we wanted / expected (and did so for many many years).

More left brainier 'I've said it so I must be right and you must listen' stuff eh? No one I know has *ever* mentioned or linked the use of low energy lamps with any political; movement or attempt to buy votes. Just because you live in a highly charged / motivated world, doesn't mean everone else does (and they don't).

Wow, so that's something at least! ;-)

Cite?

Many many people are now running CFL > LED lamps and were doing so before incandescent's were phased out. That includes my Mum and the old lady across the road because I moved them over to them (after running tests with them etc). The same happened with many other people doing their own and helping others.

The lady across the road has two chandeliers each with 6 x 60W candle lamps in. She was also given one of the power monitors and could see her energy consumption jump up (720W) when someone turned both the lights on.It was particularly obvious to her because of her very low background load. As soon as we could find 60W equiv clear LED candle lamps with the right fitting I bought one for her to try, she liked it and so we changed the lot. Now she can feel comfortable having both lights on all evening.

Most countries have the ability to match supply to demand, that's the actual point. When we / they can't (and that does happen, no matter how much you protest otherwise), we can have power cuts (or is that something else you are going to deny)?

Every country that supplies us with electricity over the interconnects probably (for starters). Or sells us coal or gas by the shipload.

Ah, so everyone knows about everything do they? Again this left brainer POV is so blinkered.

Many-a-time I've been in a shed or supermarket and had people ask me for advice on something technical, including / especially lamps!

I see them confused / flustered, if they don't ask me first I ask them if they are ok and then they tell me what they are trying to do and I help them.

Back to the political soapboxing again. ;-(

<snip>

The irony being we agreed on this 'waste of energy' thing (as we saw it) from the beginning.

You did.

What, not added *any* power into the grid ever?

Ever?

I know. But industry is normally adding a base load during the day, it's not just the peaks that matter. If it is a good solar day they may be able to take a directly polluting station offline (or put power in more storage solutions in the future).

None (of course).

By you you mean, if you are suggesting it can't / won't ever happen?

Back to your votes BS when the vast majority don't make any such link.

Maybe you need to stop believe all the politicians say as then you won't keep getting thrown by it.

<snip>

You really can't even parse a simple sentence and glean the meaning from it can you (so no wonder you are so often confused).

The question wasn't if people, pigs or wheelbarrows 'voted' for anything, it was 'mow many of the people do you think voted on anything *because* of wind farms'?

Of course and I would have hoped you would have been able to see it when I mentioned a political party!

I don't remember the Green party ever being in power and therefore how they could possibly have implemented any of the policies?

And given most people don't like wind turbines (especially ITBY's) how many people do you think voted for them yet they are there?

You really ought to get out more.

I've not offered any green anything! Tell the voices in your head to be quiet and just take note of what I actually say for a change.

Phew.

Quite then. It's strange how 'some people' are so uneasy about their life choices they get so very defensive when people question it.

It's an issue (and we have had load / demand based power cuts, one relatively recently).

Many things are governed by supply and demand, be it water, electricity, the flu jab or Covid vaccine. Some things are easier to predict / manage / meet than others.

You are weird.

Ah, nice. That's the closest you can get to an acceptance?

Of course it is you nutjob. How *efficiently* the energy consumed by the heater is transferred to the user. Just because loads of scenarios aren't obvious to you unless signposted, doesn't mean they don't exist or aren't right.

Quite, so, let's think of a way we might measure / judge how well some solution serves the need ... oh I know, let's call it 'efficiency'!

You do mate, you just don't realise what and where (as you have already stated it exactly).

I think you should play music though some headphones and drive those voices away. ;-(

<snip>

I know! I've been reminding you for ages!

No, the voices in your head don't want you to agree with the 'political stuff' they tell you I'm talking when I'm not.

If I (typically) spoil my paper at the local and general elections (or post a protest vote that has the same outcome) and spoiled my paper in the EU ref scam (and as of right now anyone who voted Leave has know idea what the final deal will be .. yet they voted for it (the small print no interest to them of course)), just how 'political' do you (or the voices in your head) think I am?

Cheers, T i m

[Dave Plowman (News]

High quality monitors - the type used to set the camera pictures on in the studio control rooms - were all shadow mask. Trinitron or PIL simply never made the grade.

[Dave Plowman (News]

Called a triad.

[T i m]

Ok, thanks.

Cheers, T i m

[T i m]

Quite.

So, on say a broadcast spec monitor, how few pixels could you illuminate in isolation?

From Tabby Cat's description the answer seems to be 'a few' but I can't see how a mask that could restrict a gun beam onto one 1/3rd of a pixel (one phosphor dot) couldn't (wouldn't) also limit any scatter from adjacent pixels?

Cheers, T i m

[Fredxx]

That is the point of the shadow mask, so only electrons from a single gun will land on a single colour phosphor dots.

For the delta gun, using triads of phosphor, the shadow mask blocked 90% of the beam current. For Aperture Grill tubes the efficiency was higher, but still max of 30%.

Beam index tubes were researched but that stopped with the advent of affordable LCD displays.

The rest of the beam current is lost to heating the shadow mask, and why, in quality CRTs, invar was used.

The colour CRT was still more efficient at making light than incandescent lamps.

The above is off the top of my head, feel free to correct it.

[Fredxx]

I wasn't aware of that and a little surprised. Lower beam currents give better focus and hence the darkened control rooms.

An issue with Aperture Grill / PIL tubes is that larger screens had horizontal wires to maintain the aperture separation over the height of the tube. These usually were apparent as 2 or 3 dark horizontal lines equally spaced in the vertical sense.

Funnily I would also called tubes with the guns in a line PIL tubes, but google seems to have wiped any mention of them from its search engine.

I'm surprised Cromaclear tubes didn't take over the top end from shadow/delta since this has the best features of PIL and delta/shadow.