OT: Woodland for firewood (and as investment)

A bit of mature broadleaf woodland has come up for sale near me. Quite tempted “just because”, I’ve always fancied a bit of woodland to enjoy and use to keep me in firewood.
Is there a general rule of thumb for acreage to supply firewood for heating? Also, how well does woodland work as a long term investment? Interest rates are so poor everywhere I can’t imagine it would do worse than any other form of savings. Not really into playing the stock market.
A lot of vague questions I know.
Tim
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On 15/01/2020 21:19, Tim+ wrote:

We work in yield classes, broadleaves are in the 4-8 M3/annum ball park up to their age of maximum mean annual increment and then it tails off. broadleaves are in the 350kg-400kg per m3 of dry solid wood per m3 ball park.
Of course it's normally only the branches and knotty wood that goes for firewood, sawmills will still have a demand for oak and beech in good quality, ash is a bit of a drug on the market atm.
Also, how well does woodland work as a long term investment?
Can be pretty good still at offsetting tax and prices look like they have done well will other investments excluding housing.
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I don't follow your units here.
You have 1 m2 of land, which can grow X m3 of green wood per year. That translates into Y kg of dry wood, with a calorific value of Z J/kg.
I think you're saying when X=1m3 of wet wood, Y@0kg of dry wood, but what's the rough productivity of land? And the calorific value of that dry wood?
Theo
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On 15/01/2020 22:58, Theo wrote:

10,000m2 in one hectare
which can grow X m3 of green wood per year.
grows 4m3 of oak stems on moderate to poor land

4m3 of oak timber is about 2.2 tonnes of bone dry wood
with a calorific value of Z J/kg.
1 kg of bone dry hardwood contains about 18.6 MJ or 5kWh so each hectare would yield 11,000kWh
Of course you have to harvest the whole wet weight and when you burn wood even at an ideal moisture content below 20% by weight you have to use a bit of that energy to send steam up the chimney.
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Thanks :)
So that means the average house (10-20,000 kWh of gas) would take a couple of hectares to break even.

Are there any flue systems that use waste heat to dry out fresh logs? Beyond simply stacking them next to the stove.
Theo
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On 17/01/2020 12:13, Theo wrote:

Possibly, I have a small semi and burn about 4m3, which with a 150W fan keeps the house warm (aided by a radiator on the central heating that comes on for 2 hours a day in winter because the 3 port valve on the Y plan leaks water between DHW and CH). The TRVs on other radiators and the house thermostat very seldom trigger the central heating.
I was using the lowest yield class figures in my example, softwoods will produce more and poplar and willow can produce 10 tonnes of dry weight per ha on good ground.
Mine all comes from trees removed from peoples gardens.
Also a neglected woodland will have a build up of growth over and above current increment.

I don't know,it shouldn't be necessary as wood cut, split and stacked in a covered air place will get below 20% mc from May to September. Winter felled wood has less moisture than summer felled.
Actually we find that the RH in the house falls to around 40% with the stove running which is a bit too dry so I do bring in damper logs and set them a distance from the stove.
I experimented in the run up to Xmas 19 and found a free standing 1kg green oak log lost 86 grams of water each day initially and was below 20% mc in 15 days.
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On Friday, 17 January 2020 12:13:09 UTC, Theo wrote:

Green wood for burning is stacked in a well ventilated store for at least a year, ideally two. A polytunnel with through ventilation is ideal. Sun gets it good and hot.
I bring wood from the outdoor store and keep it in our conservatory prior to burning. I can get the moisture content down to less than 5% by this means.
You need far too much to pile it by the stove. That would only be a few days worth.
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One thing to be wary of if you look on the 'woods for sale' websites is there are people who own a large wood flogging it off in little pieces, a bit like parking spaces/storage pods/student housing 'investment' schemes/scams. They give each piece a cute name, even if they're parts of an undivided larger tract of woodland.
I would check the price carefully, and also the access. No good if you own a tiny piece of Sherwood Forest if surrounded by other people's unmaintained woods and it's a long way from the nearest track.
Theo
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On 15/01/2020 21:19, Tim+ wrote:

a peasant family used to be able to live off about 10 acres.
If I were totally wood burning I'd guess at around 2-3 mature trees per year.
they take areound 20 years to grow, so you would need around 60 of them.
Sounds like an acre and a half = half a hectare

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On Thu, 16 Jan 2020 06:17:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That would be about right with crops and grazing, assuming suitable climate and good soil. Would work here, climate is not suitable for crops.

I'd have said a one complete mature beech or oak. So lets assume 2.

20 years for a mature oak or beech? No way, make it nearer a hundred. Even with fast growing softwoods you're looking at 40 years to get a decent sized tree, not to mention that softwood isn't good firewood.
So you'll need at least 200 trees to sustainably harvest 2 per year. Of trees planted to replace those harvested not all will reach maturity, say 50% mortality. 300 trees. A square with 18 trees/side is 324 trees. Spaced at ten yards gives 180 * 180 = 32400 sq yds about 7 acres or just under 3 hectares.
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This country (incl. Scotland) is about 64M acres. So would need to get the population well below 10 million. Any suggestions?
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wrote:

Not when they arent all peasants.
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writes

Good plan. Get rid of the wealthy parasites and support us peasants?
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wrote:

Makes more sense to recognise that none of us are peasants anymore and how many of those the country can support has no relevance anymore.
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On 16/01/2020 19:11, Ray wrote:

Makes more sense to understand that crime has always paid. Wealthy parasites are YOUR protection racket.
When they fail to protect you, you get rid of them,
Hence brexit
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wrote:

But you lot are too stupid to get rid of your royal parasites and have far too many MP parasites too.
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Thought I hadn't heard that much of Moggie recently.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 16/01/2020 18:19:03, Tim Lamb wrote:

The French sorted their country out circa 1790. Perhaps not such a bad idea after all?
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wrote:

But then were actually stupid enough to have the parasites back again.
Come to think of it, you lot did the same thing yourselves.
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wrote:

In fact they didn't. Their governmental system has been characterised by instability ever since. We're lucky that we've managed to avoid that. We've also been lucky in that we got rid of the Catholic Church, then the Puritans, and had that German bloke persuade Queen Vicky to keep her fingers out of government, and then had monarchs who, for the most part understand they service and duty to the nation are what they area bout. And when there was one who didn't get it, he could abdicate in favour of one who did. About our luck with the current monarch, nothing need be said.
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