[OT] Smart meters

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44903471
Another great legacy from David Cameron' days in power. Goes nicely with the other (only?) one: the wind turbine on one of his houses that would have paid for itself after 40 years of use (maintenance costs not included)...
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On 21/07/2018 00:00, JoeJoe wrote:

From the article, "53 million of them are due to be installed". That's almost one each for every man woman and child in the UK. 53 million meters for £11b = £207 per installation resulting in a saving of £11 per year - or a break even payback of 19 years, and for a gas meter with a non-user replaceable battery life of 10 years (or less).
On the radio this morning I liked the phrase from one of the people in charge of the smart meter roll out that smart meters give the consumers full control over how they use electricity as though those of us without such a meter have our consumption controlled by a third party.
The same person suggested that we would get meaningful savings from our investment. I would gladly invest in my own smart meter if he could prove that £11 per year projected saving was a lot more than the cost of the meter plus installation. Yes, I do realise that I'm actually paying for one in my bill whether I have one or not!
Is there any meaningful data to back up the projected energy savings, or even money savings for the consumer? Could it be that someone has looked into the energy use in a household before and after a smart meter installation and not factored in that the light bulbs have been replaced with LED and many appliances have been changed in the normal course of events with items that use less energy or now automatically switch off when not in use?
On a similar subject, changing energy suppliers. On personal experience, one to avoid is GreenStar Energy. Long story short, for me I cannot get them to give me a final bill when I changed to another supplier. There is nothing special on my account, they have my monthly readings, they have been taking regular monthly DD payments, the DD is still open and I believe that I'm slightly in credit with them. Switching is meant to be hassle free and up to now has been for me - this time I'll have to contact the energy ombudsman.
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On Saturday, 21 July 2018 07:43:03 UTC+1, alan_m wrote:

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of £11 per

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If smart meters made economic sense there would be no need for government i nvolvement. Energy companies would offer a tiny incentive to have them when meters are due for replacement & everyone would benefit.
There is of course no mechanism by which they save energy. Once people see what tiny amounts can be saved by making life a pain they typically abandon any further attempt at energy saving, thus if anything they tend to increa se use.
NT
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

But a (weak?) mechanism where they might encourage people to see if they can save something, if you're not poor enough for energy bills to hurt you probably won't bother otherwise.
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To save very much at all you have to become rather anal about turning lights and devices off. Nobody can keep that up for very long. The best way is for devices themselves to go into a low power mode if not turned off, but these days they mostly do that for themselves anyway. And I would anyway rather keep complete control of when my fridge goes on/off, thanks. Likewise the cooker. Odd that, ain't it?
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wrote:

Not with lights anymore.

They can however be selective about when the higher power devices are used with stuff like washing machines and dishwashers.
The best

You get a much better result by being selective about when some of them are used.

Not with some like washing machines and dishwashers.
And I

Pity about the other stuff like washing machines and dishwashers and driers.
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On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 19:46:26 +1000, Jack James wrote:

Only if you have time-sensitive tariffs.
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On 21/07/2018 13:29, Jethro_uk wrote:

The world seems to have survived time-sensitive tariffs for many other things - eg travel (including on nationalised railways and on Transport for London Underground under Labour mayors).
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Robin
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On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:49:08 +0100, Robin wrote:

Did I say the world hadn't survived time sensitive tariffs ?
I noted that they would be needed in energy supply (I am aware of Economy 7) if savings were to be predicated upon changing usage patterns with respect to time.
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Only with a few hiccups. There was a huge row in Cambs when the infamous new GTR timetable had a side effect of shifting the first off-peak train for local commuters twenty minutes later (to a 09:36 arrival in Cambridge) which hit a lot of people trying to get to work for 09:30.
There have also been many rows about the introduction of late afternoon peak periods, on flows when none previously existed.
Then there was the great "simplification" of fares about ten years ago with much renaming of tickets, which bumped the cheapest returns to London for a large number of longer distance passengers to close to midday, forcing them to buy a significantly more expensive ticket if they had any business in the late morning to conduct.
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Roland Perry

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That’s always been one point of smart meters, recording when you use the power, so you can have time sensitive tariffs which encourage people to use some non time critical devices like water heaters, washing machines and dishwashers when there isnt peak demand for power.
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Jack James wrote:

Smart meters may all have the ability to record usage in time-based registers, but in the UK none of the suppliers have time based tariffs, indeed having an economy7 installation seems to be a bar to having one installed.
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Yet. Everywhere else that has smart meters do.

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On 21/07/2018 19:45, Jack James wrote:

They'll use it for cookers, so you "have" to eat then the power company says you can.
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Just another utterly mindless conspiracy theory. Smart meters don’t control anything, they just RECORD when you use the power.
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On 21/07/2018 20:46, Jack James wrote:

So they can jack up the rate to an unfeasibly high level just when you want to cook some grub.
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They don’t determine the rate either. The plan you sign up for sets that when the suppliers start having time of use tariffs. And the supplier doesn’t charge what they like either, if they have to specify what rate they will charge in each time band at the time you sign up for that particular plan.
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On 21/07/2018 19:45, Jack James wrote:

Except, for many people, those are not time insensitive.
When your child comes home from school with a dirty blazer, PE kit, etc. and needs it the next day, you do not want to be waiting 'til late on to wash, dry and iron it.
If you have eaten late, you do not want to be messing about emptying and loading the dishwasher when you are ready to go to bed either. You do it when you get in after work, to clear the kitchen ready for preparing food.
Time based electricity pricing will dictate when people can carry out parts of their daily life and will impact particularly on workers, parents and carers.
SteveW
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Few are in that situation. Most have enough of a clue to have more than one copy of PE kit and so don’t need to be waiting till late on to do that stuff and don’t put the blazer in the washing machine anyway.

Only a fool runs the dishwasher after every evening meal.

But you don’t have to run it then, you are free to run it just before you go to bed with a delayed start programmed too.

Only those who don’t have enough of a clue to have enough PE kit so that that it has to be washed, dried and ironed overnight.
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@gmail.com says...

We have a small kitchen with limited storage area so don't have room for vast amounts of crockery.
We have a slim line dishwasher because (a) there are only the two of us and (b) we don't have room for a full size one.
When we finish our evening meal, the dishwasher is full, so we run it and dry everything so that we have clean crockery for the automatic tea-maker.
We only run it if it is full. If it isn't, which does happen on occasion, then the crockery for the next morning is hand washed and the dishwasher is run during the following day after it is full again.
What is foolish about that?
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Terry

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