OT French Kettles

[Dave Plowman (News)]

And the members of Democratic Union of Mine workers (sorry if that's not the exact name) are all still in work mining coal?

[Matt]

Don't be silly, they were Thatcher's puppets although they were far to stupid to realise it at the time.

Yet another legacy of Thatcher:

Once upon a time a tired driver fell asleep at the wheel and veered off the road, down an embankment and his land rover and trailer ended up on a railway line. Moments later a passenger train hit it at high speed and derailed. The train stayed upright and It was a perfectly survivable accident for all on board the passenger train right up until some considerable distance from the original collision it catastrophically hit a slow moving freight train coming the other way, left the lines completely, overturned and killed 10 people.

All this death and heartache - despite their being a direct and dedicated freight line from a local mine with the *best* productivity in the British coal industry to a local power station five miles away it was preferred by the private operators of the power station (another industry decimated by Thatcher and her minions) to fetch coal from the other side of the world by bulk carrier, transport it by rail with the last sector being along a route shared with high speed passenger traffic.

Thatcher has blood all over her hands.

[John Cartmell]

That is a pernicious lie. Most governments have been relatively honest in this respect - at least as far as the official figures are concerned, if not the 'headline' figures. Now see who got rid of the statisticians responsible for ensuring the figures were valid ...

[Capitol]

I'd second that. It doesn't take much to bring out the under achieving envy brigade does it? They just can't accept that without Thatcher, they would have achieved close to zero improvement in their living standards and can't believe that Bliar and co have laid the groundwork for a major recession any time now. I see that it's now summer and unemployment figures are steadily rising, when they should be falling. Being out in the shops this afternoon, it was a desert, even in B & Q on a "Grey Day"!

Regards Capitol

[Dave Plowman (News)]

There was a steady increase (on average) in living standards for

*everyone* after WW2 until Thatcher arrived. Then the increase was far greater for those with, than those without, as it were. In other words, she increased greatly the gap between rich and poor.

Good grief. We've been recession free for longer than any period in living history. Of course a recession is likely to come along sometime. Happens in every country.

Seems you're willing to wait a very long time indeed to say 'I told you so'.

And have a very short memory about the Thatcher years and those of her successors.

[Brian Sharrock]

If I recall the case you're referring to the incident occurred 'first thing in the morning'? Why was the Driver tired? Had he not slept and assured himself that he was fit to drive? Oh, that's right! He'd been 'up all night' -- 'on the internet, wasn't he?

I like the solution you're advocating ! Ban slow moving freight (hauling) trains off 'lines' that carry passengers! Should work ... !

[tony sayer]

That Gt Heck accident was a one off, where in most all accidents several things went wrong at once. Now are you going to tell me that at Ufton Nervet where the Mazda car was parked across the line the points down the line which actually derailed the loco should have been changed/moved/or whatever because of the fact that they were there?.

If Gary hart had crashed a few seconds later, the outcome would have been different, if he crashed a few 10's of metres sooner the outcome would have been different again, if the coal train had been sooner or later the outcome different yet again.

Whatever has this to do with Thatcher. Shes been gone several years now and still road traffic goes by road with the socialist government in power since 1997 ?.........

[Andy Hall]

This is making the assumption that the management is incompetent. They have been attempting to negotiate changes in working practice for several months in order to reduce costs by £14m in the context of losses of £25m. They would probably need to have a sweeter deal from BA and tip out some of the workforce to balance the books.

It is important to keep the workforce informed, and certainly the adversarial situation created by part of the workforce and the union does not help with that. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how informed the workforce is, the economics dictate that there are going to have to be some changes. One can go on negotiating and discussing until blue in the face, but eventually the management does have to act to address the losses. Since a substantial part of the cost in a service business is the payroll, it is not rocket science to figure out where cost cutting has to be done.

[Andy Hall]

What a fanciful idea.

The Selby rail crash was as the result of the car driver falling asleep at the wheel because he'd been up all night. Pure and simple. To try to relate it to a government policy (even of the present government) is stretching reality rather too far.

The current incumbent of Downing St is a long way from being free of blood on his hands in a number of areas.

[Matt]

....and if they had not privatised the electricity industry the train would have been fetching British coal on a dedicated freight line less than five miles to the power station rather than dragging it halfway round the world and then onto a high speed passenger line. No collision, no loss of life.

It might have escaped your attention but Thatcher wrecked the coal industry out of petty spite regardless of any future requirements of the nation, then privatised the electricity and gas industry and so seriously unbalanced the energy market that it caused a huge increase in gas generation in the early 90's

The liberalisation of the gas market caused a huge one way export in gas to Europe to maximise profits with no regard for the future consequences....and now the shit has started hitting the fan. The price of gas is now going through the roof, some very significant gas fired power stations built in the mid 90's have already been mothballed because the wholesale price of gas is now prohibitively high.

The dependency on gas for generation has become such that there is serious risk of supplies to gas generation being denied in extreme winter conditions leading to the possibility of power cuts or periods of significant load restrictions for what remains of industry (basic priority for gas in such circumstances is to consumers for safety reasons)

Where 15 years ago we had very healthy gas reserves they are approaching the point where in the next year the UK becomes a net importer. Unfortunately the pipeline network across Europe is not sufficient at certain times of the year to support wholesale transfers across the network from Russia to the UK so Transco are having to build huge LNG terminals and import gas from unstable regimes such as Libya and Algeria. British Gas it certainly is not.

In the meantime there are proven reserves of coal of 500 years usage at 1990 levels being abandoned because of the legacy of Thatcher being continued by the wanker Tory B liar.

In case you are in any doubt I'm neither a supporter of Scargill, Thatcher, B Liar or the pisshead Kennedy, just a supporter of common sense, something UK plc abandoned years ago.

Thatcher's Legacy - coming to kick every man woman and child in the teeth for centuries to come.

[Matt]

And how different would be the view of the general public if it had been a junior doctor driving home after 70 hours on duty?

Despite the propaganda to the contrary its still happening.

[Andy Hall]

.... and your point is?

[Owain]

But what about all the people who would have died falling down stairs or in fires caused by candles when the power workers had another of their strikes? They needn't have botherd phoning the fire brigade, because they'd be on strike too, and they woudln't have had a phone anyway because there was a waiting list for an expensive GPO phone. What about all the children scalded from kettles being poured into baths because there was no electricity to run the boiler? What about all the people who would have died in road accidents because street lighting and traffic lights failed?

Owain

[Dave Plowman (News)]

;-)

In the height of the Scargill era, I was working on a kids prog called CBTV. It had a 'face the public' interview with a 'celebrity' where a panel of kids asked the questions. Usually recorded earlier in the day, although the prog was live.

With a pop star, the kids asked their own questions. With a politician, etc, it was obvious they'd been prompted by their teachers.

And so it was with the Scargill interview - dead boring. But there was a recording fault, and they all had to hang around until it was sorted. And then the kids started asking their own questions. Sometimes very hostile - views lifted from their parents? And Scargill came alive. He gave concise and considered answers to all the 'Mail' type views expressed by the kids, and soon had them eating out of his hand. I was most impressed.

But VTR eventually found the recording was ok, so being short of time we had to move on. I'd have loved to re-shoot that interview after both Scargill and the kids were at ease, and asking and answering honestly.

She certainly did for my industry. Of course it still exists, but the conditions of service and pay are poor.

If I were in charge, I'd require MPs to suffer the worst conditions of service that they legislate for others.

I'll give a couple of examples.

If, as a member of staff working in central London I'm required to work so late that I can't get home by public transport, a taxi provided by the employer is taxed as a perk. Even although I might have a season ticket for that journey. An MP can claim a taxi after a late night sitting as expenses regardless.

If I take a job away from home, it's not possible to claim the whole cost of accommodation there as an expense against tax. MPs get generous allowances for their London accommodation if their constituency is not there.

I could go on about the fact that they don't have to turn up at work to be paid, and can't be sacked easily. And their generous pension plans. Etc, etc.

[Peter Parry]

Of course they are, with competent capable managers this situation would never have arisen. They are the people whose justification for their large pay packet is the "risk" they take. Why try so hard to insulate them from the consequences of their failure?

They have failed and should reap the rewards of that failure.

The adversarial situation is caused by weak management. With good managers this sort of trade unionism simply doesn't thrive. That it does is a reflection upon the low standards of the directors and managers. Did you see the interview on TV with that arrogant dipstick trying to blame everyone but himself for the companies failure?

So how many senior managers are they proposing to sack?

So you start at the top - they failed to control the situation years ago.

So I repeat - how many board members and senior managers are they proposing to shed?

[Andy Hall]

Nobody's insulating anybody. Without specific evidence the discussion becomes conjecture.

Unfortunately it does, as history has shown.

Not necessarily. It depends on what the issues are and have been.

This is irrelevant. The full set of information required to know what has happened and to form an opinion has not been published.

[Andy Hall]

No it isn't. I wasn't basing the remark on numbers or percentages of people but on the plethora of schemes.

I include in my comments all of the methods used to reduce the apparent figures. Training schemes, "new deals" and all the rest where they don't result in sustained and sustainable employment, but are in effect temporary in nature. A better measure would be to factor in all those who had been involved in one of these and then to look at whether they were employed in 1,2 and 5 years time, and for how much of that time they had been employed.

Anything that reduces the proportion of state employees in an economy is a good thing.

[tony sayer]

O come on now, you do have your head in the sand re this. I suppose that the crash at Ufton Nervet and lets say Ladbroke grove were all her fault then?...

Post that on uk.railway and see what response you get...

And so what if it did?. I note that the coal industry isn't in as good shape as it was as they haven't the market for the coal..

So then they'll have to look elsewhere, nuclear power perhaps/..

As is bugger all else..

It'll keep there its not going to go away is it?. When its deemed economic to mina again and the demand is there it'll be mined. Why don't you start up a mine and see how you get on and what profits you make?..

Ah!, now I'll agree with you there;).....

Yes I suppose she'll get the blame for every malaise known to man, but she was voted into power was she not, as what were the alternatives around at the time, and we are still a democracy eh?.....

>

[tony sayer]

But if it was that bad Dave, would you still be working there?. And if you weren't and they couldn't get the staff, surely they'd have to pay more and offer more?.....

Don't get me started on those wasters. Before they run UK PLC they should have the skills to form, start and run a car parts factory in the Midlands, then and only then perhaps they should be allowed to run the country!......

[Capitol]

I think this is now allowable. Certainly a few years ago it wasn't.

I agree with you on MPs, they all including the PM should be paid the national average wage and pension, so that they directly reflect the incomes of their electors and realise that to represent the people is a privilege and not a gravy train. They should also be limited to two or three terms of office or as a governmental employee so that they can experience a life other than politics.

Regards Capitol