problem.
This is the problem, many faults can cause the same or very similar faults, this is why the dealer checked the fault-code and didn't just steam-roller into changing the said sensor / component - or are you suggesting that this would have been the first time the dealer had come across such a fault ?!
Not a lot....
Indeed, but I get the impression that the OP's garage is not a Ford dealer with the Ford diagnostic kit and list of the error codes.
No, I got the impression that it was a common(ish) problem.
Might help the OP though ;-)
Parish
similar
It would have to be a half-witted back-street garage for them no to have such diagnostic kit, this equipment is not dealer specific and the fault codes are available to the trade.
Crikey - that's cheap. The older 'flapper' type on mine is over 300 quid.
There are independant makers of code readers, and I'd expect every decent independant garage to have one.
I've even got one for my private car. ;-)
Really? So if I took the Fiesta, or my Saab, to say a Vauxhall dealer or (good, competent) independent that they'd be able to hook them up to their diagnostic kit and extract as much info as the respective main dealers? I would have thought that the manufacturers would make their systems (both in the car and the workshop) proprietary in order to (attempt to) force people to use their dealers.
Again, that surprises me - for the reasons stated above.
BTW, I'm not being sarcastic, I'd be interested to know.
Regards,
Parish
The fault interface is a standard (several standards actually) It is a legal requirement to be able to monitor some things, and others, like microsoft are proprietry. The american standards are older, and more standard than the european ones. From a certain date new cars had to be fitted with standard interfaces.
Ah, thanks for that. It wouldn't be due to anti-competitive legislation would it? I'm sure it isn't something that the manufacturers would want to do.
Parish
I'd not necessarily expect a main dealer to have the equipment for other maker's cars. But an independant should. For a start they can charge for using it, and it makes diagnostics so much easier.
BTW, in the US - the land of free enterprise - *all* cars have to have a common diagnostic socket that can be read by just one instrument. Called OBC, IIRC. It's basically for checking emissions, but any engine fault will effect those, so it will diagnose pretty well all. Not sure about auto gearbox codes, though.
To me it's unfair practice trying to keep such things to themselves. And it's fairly recent. At one time anyone could buy a maker's workshop manual for virtually any car - now it's near impossible. So dealers get a licence to print money - mine is some 110 quid an hour for rubbish service coupled to shoddy work and downright dishonesty.
That makes sense. Since emissions are a legislative thing checking/adjusting must be 'open' so can't be restricted to the manufacturers' dealers. Someone else said they are standard over here now too so I guess a main dealer could use their equipment on other manufacturers' cars (depending on age).
[snip]
Yes, some of them are better at printing money than fixing cars :-( When I took the Fiesta in, the first thing they did was have a technician go out for a test drive. As we were walking to the car I explained the problem and he said, without hesitating, "It'll be the MAF sensor". After driving only a couple of hundred metres he said "Yeah, it's the MAF sensor" - this is what makes me suspect it's a common problem - yet they still (allegedly) hooked it up to the diagnostic station, probably more as a excuse for charging an extra 20 mins labour (for 5 mins work).
Someone once told me, many years ago, that BMW wouldn't sell parts to Joe Public. Dunno whether that is/was the case or whether he was just avoiding ridicule for taking it to a dealer for a simple job.
Parish
"Yeah,
No, it's to double check that the diagnosis agrees with the diagnostic, you would soon be shouting from the roof tops if they fitted (say) a new MAF sensor and then find it's failure was a result and not a cause...
Hi Chris,
A good point to start is to check the ECU to see if it's reporting any faults. There are a few forums around and it looks like a code reader is easy to make or cheap to buy:
If the ECU is reporting a faulty sensor bear in mind it could be a loose connection instead of the sensor itself. If the ECU is reporting all OK it could be a bad sensor making the ECU get the timing or mixture wrong, or something not related to the ECU such as fuel flow/pressure problems.
It does sound like the faults could be due to a bad airflow or engine temperature but it's by far the best to diagnose the fault in a conclusive way.
cheers, Pete
In message , Parish writes
Well, the dealers tend only to have their manufacturer's specific equipment but a good independent will have a scantool (or scantools) that can read and reset fault codes from many engine management systems as well as displaying 'live' data with the engine running (coolant temp, air temp, RPM injector pulse width, lambda sensor etc. etc...) to enable fault finding.
Cars after 2001 use E-OBDII, it's a standard that's Europe Wide and it provides a mandatory minimum set of information, it's an available protocol so it's 'easy' to use. Plenty of manufacturers add extra data to the datastream, plenty don't or make it accessible to only their kit but it's usually reverse engineered pretty quickly.
Hopefully now you know.
They certainly do now. But their parts CD - the ETK - requires a fair amount of experience to know just where certain parts are in it.
The driver's exterior door handle broke on mine, and I got a new one. Its fixing is unusual in that you don't have to remove the interior door trim to get at it - it's all done via a small hole in the door jam. Which is sealed by a sort of plastic grommet which breaks when you remove it.
Going to my local dealer for a new one after replacing the handle, the young stores lad (in a suit ;-)) couldn't find it on the computer. And wanted me to point it out to him on the car. Which was parked some way away. Now I'm not sure what good it would do seeing it, as unless he could find it on the computer, he couldn't issue an invoice. So I told him not to bother, but he followed me up the road pad in hand. ;-)
Went to the next nearest dealer later, and a *proper* store man who looked like he might get dirty on occasion went straight to it.
Cost 24p ;-)
Kudos then to BMW for making what I expect would be a rarely replaced item easy to replace. So many times you come across things that are a major job which, for the sake of a couple of millimetres, would be a doddle - vehicles from the BMC/BL stable used to be notorious for that, although even Ford goofed with the infamous Pinto engine where the camshaft had to be removed from the back of the head rather than the front thus necessitating removal of the head (or pulling the engine and gearbox).
Oh dear, and they were doing so well ;-)
Hope you took a pic of him as they are a rare breed :-)
Parish
Yes, thanks Clint - and everyone else who replied - it seems that for once something has been done that actually benefits the motorist. I certainly remember when electronics first started appearing in cars that they were proprietary and so tied you to the main dealers; I didn't realize things had changed. Duly noted for future reference.
Regards,
Parish
Perhaps now you will stop posting your undiluted bile towards what you plainly don't understand...
Well, they totally change the material it was made of from Mazak - a sort of casting zinc alloy - to plastic.
But despite asking on all the relevant car groups and here, and the various BMW websites, no one knew actually how to change it as officially you need two special tools. And the hole is so small even with a powerful torch and small mirror I couldn't see how. So at the end of the day, I had to strip the door - airbag and all - to see how it worked. ;-(
Basically, it's a sliding latch bar with a spring lock at one end. You need a strip of steel of fairly exact dimensions to push back the spring - a screwdriver won't work - then a hook to pull the bar, both tools used at the same time. To reset the latch, you merely press the handle assembly in firmly, and push the latch bar back in and the spring locks it automatically when fully home.
I'd chatted about this round the coffee table at work with pals interested in cars - as you do - and just after I'd done it one good mate said his son actually new as he did build up work on cars after respray. ;-)
They didn't necessarily as early electronics had little or no built in diagnostics. It was just that they were (and still are) so foreign to the average mechanic. I've got an old Rover SDI which was one of the first UK cars fitted with electronic fuel injection, and pretty well all the testing of the components can be done with a decent DVM that includes dwell measurement. Of course at the end of the day, things like the ECU can only really be verified by substitution. However, the failure rate of these is very much less than the average mechanic might believe.
In my experience - diagnosing problems with two fuel injected cars - most dealres have not a clue.
I ended up having a discussion with someone I knew who ran the only independent 3rd party info center on car electronics there is.
After spending a lot on garages, I diagnosed the faults myself with his assistance and fixed em.
Even the fault codes don't tell the whole story - they need interpreting
- a 'sensor high' may be a bad sensor or a broken wire, for example, and some faults show up not at all or as something else - a poor airflow sensor for example may read perfect when closed, but the diagnostics will show merely an over lean mixture at some point in the RPM curve. That could be due to many things - insufficient fuel pressure being one.
Sadly they seem to have dissapeared - nmy chums firm - so I only have the big book of fuel injection systems he gave me left..
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