Well, the first loaf is now cool enough to cut. it was made with 250 g Allinson's strong wholemeal, and 300 g chapati. It rose well, baked up nicely, and tastes good. It required about 20 g more water than I generally use for this size loaf (it fits into a 4" x 12" tin).
I may not bother trying to find 'standard' bread flour - the chapati works very well, and the price is excellent.
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Thanks very much:))) Saved!!!
No, I couldn't really see how it was.
Quite.
Ok ...
The one thing I didn't do is all the fancy folding about, but I can't see a bread making machine doing that either?
And have you watched his video about over kneading? I think he kneads a bit of white bread for an hour and a half and it came out fine.
In the first video you linked to he also mentioned that if you baked
15 mins before or after it had fully proven it wouldn't make any difference either.Assuming the instructions on the bread mix are valid, and given I followed them to the letter ... and that the 'best by' was tomorrow,
*maybe* I'd done nothing wrong and it was just down to the mix?I'm not saying that I might not have been able to make it better, just that it should really have worked as it is?
Cheers, T i m
Absolutely! I've quite enjoyed it right now because I'm boxed in. Otherwise, maybe once every few months.
I did make some from scratch, and it was a lot easier than I thought. Recipes call for a warm place for the dough to rise - I don't have one of those, no airing cupboard. But it worked fine at about 18C, maybe took a bit longer. Basic dough was from this:
Hi Tim
The fancy folding thing is to develop he gluten. It is just one way if doing this. Kneading also develops the gluten. My guess is that the bread was under kneaded rather than over kneaded so the gluten structure wasn't developed enough to hold the structure.
Having said all the above, I agree following the instructions should have resulted in a decent loaf. I would view the thoughts / comments above as ideas to watch during the next bread making to see if you can identify any issues as you go. Hopefully the next one will work better ?
;-)
If you think about it, bread has been made in all forms for a very long time now and in far worse conditions than we have now.
They do look nice I have to admit, but then so does most food (I've never likes aubergines or squashes, now I don't 'like' (but not because of the taste) to east animals etc.
Hmm, we don't generally have crisps, biscuits or cakes here because if they are we will eat them and we really shouldn't.
I believe plain / flavoured white bread is mostly empty calories and hence why we generally use wholemeal, because at least it might have some fibre. I can't say I 'prefer' (or preferred) the taste though.
I'm not sure there is much that is stronger than the background taste of the wholemeal itself, even when eaten under baked beans etc. However, like most things, you get used to it and then it becomes the norm. Like I now drink tea / coffee with no sugar when for much of my life I has two (can't stand the aftertaste with sweeteners and would rather go without, even when I was missing the sugar). Same with salt. I used to sprinkle some on most 'dinners' as a matter of routine and then I stopped (because that was the advice at the time) and whilst I missed it initially, after a while I didn't. Now I might only put the smallest sprinkle on tomato (we had sheese and tomato sarnies last night). I used to still routinely put it on egg (boiled, poached, scrambled) but now I'm not eating egg ... ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Hi Lee.
Ok.
Ok.
OK, that's entirely possible and something I can experiment with later (especially if it's unlikely to do any harm).
Yeah.
I think I'll just follow the instructions again on the next batch in case it was just down to the 'age' of the mix. Good faultfinding means you only change one thing at a time. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
I asked a mate to pick me up some flour to make bread with a while ago and that's what he gave me. ;-)
Because (rather than buying ready made ooi)?
From memory of the one I borrowed, the tins were Teflon coated and so whilst there was *some* cleanup (the Teflon wasn't what it once was and I got a bit of flour on the machine in general etc), bit I might have been less than cleaning your hands and the work surfaces etc?
Apparently, some don't but most do (and it is a pita).
Ok.
That's a good way to get a 'known' temp (where known is 'good enough').
And it can be a mess eh. The mixing wasn't for me, mix in, make a hole in the middle (like mixing cement by hand), push the sides in and after a few turns with a wooden spoon it was done. Just need to wet out a few bits of dry flour still stuck to the sides and blend it in, job done? I mean once it's got to that stage, you can't really do much more with a spoon as it's too firm?
That's the thing with the mix I did, it was already at a pretty 'homogenous consistency' straight from the mixing, probably given the fact it was pre-mixed in the first place?
Ok ;-)
Both of the 1lb tins daughter found me were Teflon coated and both times the bread has just tipped out. Also being wholemeal it's already reasonably 'brown' so you don't really have the issue of any of it looking anemic?
That's a good idea. We have 'Slow' on our Gas oven and that may be low enough for proving.
I'm not sure I've ever seen it quite as high as the tin, well, not all over anyway (the corners were still a bit behind).
Is that ok, or should you put it into a preheated oven (as different ovens may take different times to reach full temp)? I suppose that wouldn't matter if 1) the process was acceptable and 2) you built that into your total baking time.
Not even a grid! I just put ours onto the hob bars to cool.
Yes, and if this mix really only does need kneading for 2 mins, then it does seem reasonably quick overall.
The last couple of times I've baked I was cooking dinner at the same time so could make use of the couple of resting and proving time whilst eating. Then I just took it out when the timer sounded.
I've ordered a bread scraper thing as getting it off the work surface wasn't that easy (as seen on the video Lee linked) and would be more that happy to take the kneading process from 2 to 5 (or more) minutes, if there was a chance it would make a difference (as I'm used to general d-i-y sawing / sanding and so have a stock of elbow-grease). ;-)
Cheers, T i m
Because I prefer the taste and texture over the shop-bought fluff. Although I do like a white French stick.
<snip>
If the measuring jug had zero heat capacity, the temperature of the mix should be the average of room temperature and boiling, i.e. 60C. But my thick glass measuring jug takes some heat so the mix ends up nicely warm.
I agree, but just I use a fork only while adding the extra water, then do the kneading with bare hands. They are good for judging the consistency.
<snip>
Someone else agreed the machine didn't need much cleaning - OK. I use a coated tin, and the bread would fall out OK, but I now use oil as it makes the bottom of the loaf brown to match the brownness of the bare top.
<snip>If I preheated the oven the bread would be done in 25 mins, but I can't turn it up until the bread has risen, so the preheating time becomes part of the baking time. The loaf tends to rise a bit more during the preheating time.
Your bars are ideal. My plate is dished so the bread only sits on its corners, and the condensed steam doesn't wet the bread too much.
I take it you knead the bread on this work surface? That's why I knead it in the bowl to avoid messing up a wide area that then needs cleaning!
No doubt extra kneading, knocking back and kneading again as others recommend would improve the flavour, but as the flavour with the quick method is way good enough it's not worth the extra effort.
Do you find a typical branded wholemeal that way? I get it with while (or brown, if they still sell it) but wholemeals tend to be a bit 'heavier'?
;-)
I like it. ;-)
Extra water? I just tip all the water in as specified in the instructions and that's it?
So this is done out of the bowl by that point?
Agreed. That said, from the point where I can 'mix' using the spoon any more, the consistency seems pretty good?
Understood.
Ok, ok. Win win then. I didn't know if the dough was supposed to go in a pre-heated oven for thermal / chemical reasons.
Ok.
<snip>
Yes, it's a tray I clean thoroughly prior to use, the idea is that it's sealed and with the lip, keeps any loose flour in place etc.
I'm not sure I could knead the dough the way it looks like you are supposed. Probably doesn't actually matter then?
No, quite, and for me the bread is just a supporting actor, not the headline. ;-)
If it would work for me (with said bread mix), I'd prefer your approach / technique and for the same reasons you give. ;-)
What sort of diameter is the bowl you do the kneading in Dave?
Cheers, T i m
The convention is that you use 1 part boiling to 2 parts cold water, or just "hand hot" from the hot tap. If you use "fast action"/"easy blend" dried yeast (the terminology varies), you just add the yeast to the flour. I think with fresh yeast or conventional dried yeast (little balls), you have to add a little sugar to the water/yeast mixture to get the yeast going.
Warm the tin in the oven (set to the minimum as described), take out and rub with lard or dripping (to keep the veggies at bay).
If you don't have a suitable warm place (airing cupboard; top of a storage heater), warm it in the main oven as you describe; but, in the case of an electric oven, I prefer to take it out of the oven after 45 minutes, increase the oven to 230 °C and put the loaf back in after 15 minutes when the oven will have reached the correct temperature. With a gas oven (gas mark 8; do they still use gas marks?), you can leave it in as gas heats up more quickly.
Turn the loaf out onto a grid to cool. You need to leave it for several hours before you can easily cut it. If you want to freeze it sliced you should freeze it "loose" so the slices don't stick together.
I used Dave's 1:1 and it did feel a little 'warm' (possibly warmer than the 'luke warm' as per the instructions).
It turns out this 'new' (Oct 'Best By') mix is slightly different to the previous but seems to share the same general instructions.
300ml of lukewarm water, mix with the 500g of 'mix' for 5 mins. I did the first bit with a wooden spoon and the rest with my hand (as per Dave's suggestion).Leave for 5.
Kneed for 2 (I did 5 this time).
Leave for 5
Split into two 1lb parts, place in tins (warmed), loose cover with clingfilm and leave in warm place (on top of oven on Slow), it's 20+ DegC in here.
I'm currently leaving it the 30-40 mins to see if it rises up more whilst proving this time.
These tins are Teflon coated and being a 'Grainy' mix, are already fairly brown. ;-)
Yup, ours is still marked in 'Gas Marks' <g> so I'll turn it up to 8 and once up to temp, leave them in for 20 mins like I did last time (also from fully pre-heated).
Just hob irons here.
If we can wait that long. ;-)
+1We tend to do it in 2's or 4's (depending on slice size) as we aren't likely to use less than that and found it defrosts pretty quickly in this weather (still in it's freezer bags).
Is bread like cake where you shouldn't really open the oven before it's mostly done?
Cheers, T i m
I only use mine for shaping foam for upholstery.
This email is getting a bit long, but here are a few points:
By all means tip all the water in, because that's what the Wright's instructions say. But I use flour without built-in yeast, so I do the pre-frothing to make sure the yeast is OK, than have to add more water to the flour & yeast mixture. I try to pour the water round the pool of froth to make sure all the water gets some yeast before kneading.
My bowl is 29cm diameter.
I use the 50/50 white/wholemeal mix as wholemeal alone makes a loaf too heavy for my liking, but I have never found a shop-bought loaf that's as solid as even a handmade all-white loaf.
Regards, Dave W
If I can't wait 10 mins for the hot loaf to cool, my serrated bread knife doesn't "destroy" the loaf, but just collects some sticky crumbs while clouds of steam are released. I wash the crumbs off the knife immediately.
I find that although an ordinary bread knife destroys a freshly-baked hot-out-of-the-oven loaf, an electric carving knife with two reciprocating blades slices through it like a slicey thing. To be honest that is the only thing I use my electric carving knife for.
Nick
You wait ten minutes? I wish I had that willpower!
Nick
That is a brillliant idea! I will have to remember that for later.
Nick
Is that a guess, you read the manual or you asked your wife:-)?
I had a quick look at the manual. It has 27 options and I have no idea what half the breads are. I was thinking about buying the gf one now the insurance co are paying for the cat repairs (she would not let me DIY it) and I can have my £1200 back and not have to pay the outstanding £618 - including the consultation fees for video calls using WhatsApp to check it's scars.
Looks like a good one for £99
I vaguely remembered it from reading the manual... As Breadmaker-in-Chief - I know more about this particular appliance than my wife does <grin>
As I say - we only ever use three or four of the programs.. Don't know without checking, but at least one of the earlier breadmakers we had boasted a 'jam' setting.. Never did work out why you'd want to make jam in a bredmaker...
Yes - many of them are variations on a theme... but, 90% of the time, we're making a general purpose loaf for breakfast toast, and/or 'things' on toast (as in beans, eggs, mushrooms, cheese)
- so nothing fancy required.
I was thinking about buying the gf one now the
I've been very happy with our Panasonic..
+1 for the Kitchen Devil and foam. Worked really well when I did it.
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