Network oddities...

[Harry Bloomfield]

Sorry to keep banging on about this, but I am baffled...

Modem, router, wifi AP in loft[#1], which also connects to broadband. Wired LAN down to a second modem, router, wifi AP on ground floor[#2].

Laptop [A] most used. Laptop [B] rarely used

DHCP is disabled on #2

I have been revising my wired LAN.

After which [A] initially refused to connect to #2 by wifi, fine via a patch lead direct to #2. Then it connected via wifi, but said there was no WAN, then after a few hours changed to having WAN. [A] had no issues at all with connecting to the wifi of #2. In the middle of which - TV couldn't connect to #2 via wifi, then it could, but no WAN, then it eventually got access to WAN.

[B] worked fine with #1, struggled to connect to 2#, when it did it said no WAN.

That was all yesterday evening. All now is working, except [B] which still complains there is no WAN via #2.

I have had various routers at location #2, all have been tricky to get to work wirelessly, but are very close to the things connecting to them. Not great, but I can just about manage to connect to wifi #1 anywhere around the house - the 'not great' was why I added #2.

The revision was to replace my point to point wired LAN, with the wire ends fitted with RJ45, to 4x proper sockets next to #1, patch leads into #1, then proper outlets and patch leads at the remote ends. #2 is plugged into one of these. I suspected my solid wire cables, might be dodgy crimped with the RJ45's.

The reason I added the proper sockets was that I have had problems similar to the above for some years.

[Michael Chare]

Do you actually have a modem, a router and a WiFi AP in your loft, as separate devices?

Similarly what do you have on your ground floor?

[Harry Bloomfield]

on 12/03/2017, Harry Bloomfield supposed :

Might IP issues cause the above?

I have some items on fixed Hip's such as both routers, plus a third as a printer server. With a range of DHCP allocatable IP's well above the ones which are fixed.

My W10 laptop's diagnostics, seems to suggest it cannot connect due to IP issues, but wait for an hour or two and it then connects successfully. This has happened several times and is repeatable, but - How can an IP clash resolve itself?

I have lots of items on the network, like Firestick, Iphone, phone, 2nd phone, pad, desktop and etc.. but most not actually on, or in standby.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Michael Chare formulated on Sunday :

It is a combined modem, router, wifi AP all in one. That modem connects to the incoming phone line for Broadband. DHCP is enabled on that one, using a limited range of IP's to use, which is higher than anything I have given fixed IP's to.

I have zero problems when connecting to that AP.

I have the same as above, except the modem is not connected to anything. I was advised to and have disabled DHCP on that unit.

Whilst typing this, I had a bright idea...

Would it be sensible to enable DHCP on the ground floor unit, but allow it a range of IP's to use which would not clash with the fixed range of IP's or the DHCP ones of the loft unit?

[Andy Burns]

Should be no need, anything that wants a DHCP address should get it from the router in the loft (assuming there's a connection between LAN ports on both the routers?)

If you did enable the DHCP on a separate range on the downstairs router, you'd need to make sure it gave out the loft router as the default gateway address (and a working DNS server address too) but as I said, there's no need and it shouldn't help anything.

[Andy Burns]

Have you got the same, or different, WiFi SSID on both routers?

[Harry Bloomfield]

Andy Burns has brought this to us :

They are similar, but not the same.

[Harry Bloomfield]

on 12/03/2017, Andy Burns supposed :

There is!

Loft is a DSL- 3780 ex talktalk

Ground is a Netgear DGN2200v3, but I have tried several Netgear routers on the ground floor and had problems with intermitant connectivity. It can work for days/weeks, then change anything and connectivity is lost. Where do I need to set the default gateway, on the Netgear, or on the laptop? I cannot see anywhere to set it in the Netgear router.

[Andy Burns]

You might not be able to, the factory firmware in the router may be hardwired so its DHCP server always pushes itself as gateway and DNS, which is why they it would generally be disabled if you have more than one.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Harry Bloomfield presented the following explanation :

I have one last test to make....

Inboard of the main router #1, I have a Samknows white box, which makes regular test of my broadband connection. #1 connects to the phone line with the white box plugged via a single patch lead into the back of that. I then have four patch leads going from the white box, feeding my four LAN circuits including router #2 with which I am having issues connecting to via wifi.

Strangely, the white box announces itself on the wired LAN, in the list of attached devices, as 'Kindle'.

[Dave Liquorice]

Just to be clear, an ethernet cable from a *LAN* port on #1 in the loft to a *LAN* port on #2 down stairs?

If you use the WAN port on #2 you'll need to configure #2 to route traffic to #1 as it's default gateway and it'll probably get messy with DHCP and the two sub-nets not being able to see each other.

A LAN port to LAN port connection should "just work" provided that #2's DHCP server is disabled and #2's AP isn't configured in some "guest" mode or other wise restricted in what it can "see".

[Dave Liquorice]

Fixed wiring, solid cores, into faceplate/modular RJ45 units? Thats how it should be, using solid cable with most RJ45 plugs can be an issue.

One of the cheapo, less than a fiver, flying LED network testers will show up bad wiring as in a swapped pair or open/short circuit. But a wiring fault wouldn't selectively stop traffic.

What do you mean by "WAN"? I suspect you mean access to the internet rather than a given routers WAN port. #2's WAN port shouldn't be in use and #1 should be connected to broadband and thence to the internet.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Dave Liquorice presented the following explanation :

Yes!

The WAN (the broadband connection) port on #2 is not used, it is empty. We only have one POTS line in and that is connected to #1

#2 has a guest mode, but I have that disabled.

I can eventually connect to #2, but it takes absolutely ages and can just as easily loose the connection and then take ages to begin to work- hours in fact. Once connected it works absolutely fine.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Dave Liquorice laid this down on his screen :

Yes I did have some issues with poor crimped connections, but eventually resolved them.

Yes, I bought one five or so years ago - very useful indeed.

I managed to snap a wire fitting it with the proper faceplate system a few days ago and the unit displayed the issue. Nice bit of time saving kit.

I call the WAN the actual broadband connection and the rest of the Internet.

Items were struggling to get a wifi connection to #2 AP, then struggling to get Internet. It was the waiting for the Internet /WAN connection to appear, which is the main issue - possibly hours of waiting after switching from AP#1 to AP#2.

I switched to AP#2 last thing last night, then switched the laptop off. This morning it was working fine via AP#2 and continues to work right now at 17:00, after being off most of the time since this morning's episode. Win10 suggests when there is a problem, there is an IP issue.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Harry Bloomfield formulated the question :

Well, that didn't make a jot of difference. I pulled the patch lead feeding #2 out of the White Box and plugged it directly into #1 router. Laptop retained its access, I then swapped my laptop over from using AP#2, to using AP #1 - that reconnected almost instantly.

I then tried to swap in back to AP#2 - it spent maybe 30 seconds trying to connect, then once connected declared there was no Internet. A few minutes later, it did manage to get full access to the Internet - usually it can take an hour or more before Internet access is restored.

[Tim Streater]

lose

[Harry Bloomfield]

Tim Streater presented the following explanation :

Well, exactly :-)

[Dave Liquorice]

Have you something non-windows but with WiFi to check if that a) takes a long time to establish the WiFi link and b) also takes a long time to be able to "see" the internet.

What happens if you plug the unreliable on WiFi to #2 laptop directly into #2 via ethernet?

Trying to pin down which bit is having issues. Interference on the WiFi channel #2 is on? Plenty of smart phone apps or PC apps that'll show you which channels are heavily populated and which are relatively quiet.

I don't know how windows decides it has internet, presumably some form of "phone home". If the WiFi link has poor through put and/or high packet loss that'll screw up the 'net detection time.

You have checked (again...) that the only active DHCP on the LAN is the one in #1. You don't appear to have much kit so setting static IP address's (picked to be outside the DHCP range of #1) in everything won't be too ardious. You'll then know that everything has a different IP in the same sub-net.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Dave Liquorice presented the following explanation :

I have the same issue with a Firestick, Nook, Windows phone, Iphone and so on, I am just using the Laptop as an example as it it is to work with that.

I haven't tried it many times, but the few times I have - it connects much quicker.

I have used Acrylic Wifi scanner for the past couple of years for that purpose. Both of my AP's are on the quitest two (different) channels, manually set.

Nor I, but I would guess it attempts a regular ping to a Windows server, or relies upon its update checker.

[Dave Liquorice]

So they all take a long time to establish the WiFi link *and* also a long time to find the internet?

Connects to what much quicker the LAN and/or the internet. Sorry to be a bit pedantic about the timings of each bit, trying to establish where the delay is occuring by looking for different paths and comparing the various timings.

quitest? B-) Define "quiet". "Quiet" here means no other APs visible but mine, suburban street "quiet" means half a dozen or more SSIDs on each of the three non-mutally interfering channels (1, 6 and

11) and a few scattered in between just for good measure...

At this point I get the feeling it's a #2 WiFi problem. Which channels are your APs set to? Hopefully any 2 from 1,6 or 11.

An app that shows SSIDs is a guide to channel utilisation but doesn't give the whole story. You could have a channel with a dozen or more SSIDs visible but very little traffic and another with just two or three SSIDs each one being used to stream HD video leaving very little spare capacity for anything else. Then there is an awful lot of other stuff in/around 2.4 GHz that won't be seen either, from microwave ovens to video senders to Bluetooth to ...