I've decided to get rid of the UPVC front door in my house and replace it with a hardwood one. I have just acquired a suitable hardwood door, and now I need to make a frame for it.
I've made internal door frames and fitted internal doors before, but never a front door. Is the process the same, or is a different frame-making mthod required, such as making it from hardwood moulding?
Unless I cut 3" off the width of the new door, there will only be about
1.5" each side to accommodate the frame. That would be no problem with an internal door, but what about a front door?
Is hardwood generally used for front door frames? Any advice on methodology would be much appreciated.
Al, there certainly is a difference to making a front door frame to an internal one.
1 Timber sizes are different (4"x2" rebated and moulded - as opposed to
6"x11/4 PSE).
2 You will need to used through haunched mortice and tenons on the joints (as opposed to simple housings)
3 You may also need to fit a sill to the frame.
You will reduce the jambs to about half their size doing that - seriously weakening the door.
*WARNING*
If you have to cut 3" off the door to fit the existing frame, then it may be better to get the correct sized door to fit the opening - as the *minimum* thickness/width for a front door frame should 4"x2" rebated and moulded PSE (for security etc).
You should *NOT* reduce the door jambs by more than 1/2" (if you're lucky) on a door -- unless it constructed using through mortice and tenon joints.
If the door joints are dowelled or stopped mortice and tenon, then my advice would be to forget cutting that amount off.
You can use both hardwood and softwood to suit the type of door that you wish to use.
As for methology, there are several ways to do that - and I would advise that you do a little research on the diy wikki (or other sites) for more information as a couple of sketches/drawings are worth many words here.
(I don't visit the wikki site myself, but someone will be along to help you there).
You could also pop down to the local 'sheds' where they may have some on display - and once you've seen the principle (and your handy with tools) then the job itself is reasonably easy if you take a bit of care.
Actually I don't think we have anything in the wiki on making external door frames. About the closest there at the moment are the articles making framed ledge and braced doors, and hanging interior doors.
What is your preferred construction method on these Cash?
If you ignore the T&G boards, middle and bottom rails,Then the construction method is similar to that of a framed ledged and braced door with a few exceptions.
1 The the fact that there is often a moulded wooden sill into which the two door jams are morticed.
2 If you have rebated and ovolo moulded stock for the frames, a gouge is needed to form the joint between the ovolos of the jambs and head (the jambs just sit on the sill) - or you can play around with mitres.
3 And obviously the distance between the inside of the rebates has to be at least the width and height of the door (ignore any cutting for now) to get a reasonable fit.
Other than that. on simple front door frame (with no side panels or glass etc) then generally, if you can make the frame for a FLB door - then it really a simple step for a front door frame, if a bit of thought and care is taken.
For those that suggest making the frame out of plain PSE and then using a router to form the rebates and any moulding - remember that this method is OK, providing that you do all that before fitting the sill (it makes life easier).
Sorry for being so brief John, but as I said before, a few pictures (or a decent drawing) speaks louder than words in this case [1] [2 ]- and when things quieten down in the household over the next few weeks, I may well sit down and do a few simple drawings that you could use.
[1] There is a problem also, where the making of such frames are classed as a basic job for apprentices to do (and usually taught to them by the skilled chippies within a few hours) that text books don't seem to give this basic info - certainly the ones that I have don't (mind you, they are as ancient as me, and things may have altered now).
[2] And surviving a few strokes has caused a problem with my patience of sitting down and putting thoughts into words to get a fairly long description that someone (other than me) could readily understand. :-)
If you use rebated and moulded timber (which you really should for security) then there are no real alternatives to the joints.
You could at a pinch (if you are relatively handy) use 4"x2" PSE (Planed Square Edged) timber using through Mortise and Tenon joints [1] ( which are simple to do with care), and then once you've made the frame, use router to form the rebates and mouldings.
I would strongly advise against using plain PSE and then nailing on doorstops to form the rebates as this would almost certainly invalidate your house insurance if there was a break-in that involved the removal of the stops to get at the lock bolt etc.
If you feel that you are not confident enough to do the work as it should be done, then I would suggest that you contact a local joinery shop or builder to make the frame for you, and then fit it yourself - this would give you far better security than simpler methods (important on the main entrance to any property).
*OR*, if you live near to a local college that runs building courses, ask the joinery lecturer there if he could get one of the apprentices (trainees these days I suppose they call 'em) to make you one for the cost of the timber - good experience for the little blighters. :-)
[1] Using plain PSE, you could use simple housing joints (if there is no sill on the bottom of the frame), but these are very weak compared to the tried and trusted mortise and tenon - and as a very old chippie, I wouldn't be at all happy using that joint in this situation.
It sounds like you have all the tools you need for a decent mortice and tenon job... I will see if I get a mo later to draw it up for you.
(there is a way you could avoid the joints with long screws down/up through top and bottom rails into the jambs, but it would be a bodge in comparison)
OK - thanks, John and Cash. It seems I should look for a local chippie then... How long should it take a competent chippie to make the frame, if I supply the moulded timber? (I'm just trying to get an idea of a fair price to be charged for the job.)
If done in a fully equipped joiners shop, a simple rebated and ovolo moulded frame from stock moulded timber (with no sill, two mortise and tenon joints, setting out, cutting out, assembly and finishing) would take around 11/2 hours at the most - (plus a bit of drying time for the glue). Add a bit on if a sill is required.
If the job is being done entirely by hand (no machinery available), then roughly about a mornings work.
BTW, if you get a joiner to make the frame, give him the *exact* sizes of the opening[1] and door, and ask him to make the necessary allowances to enable the frame and door to be fitted with the minimal of cutting and planing (you're looking for a two pence thickness sized gap between frame and door on the top and both sides, the gap at the door bottom is dependent on whatever waterproofing method you use there).
[1] Check the distance between the two walls, head and floor of the door opening for, width, height, plumb and parallel (along with any obstacles such as pipes and cables)!
Basic info I know, but you'd be surprised how many 'customers' *expect* you to have a crystal ball as part of your toolkit - or come back and complain that the joiner has made the frame wrong when important information has been 'forgotten).
are a number of ways of doing these - depending on if you prefer cutting the rebates first (at the expense of slightly harder to set out joints), or as I have done here, keeping the joinery very simple[1], and doing the rebates with a router last.
[1] I have done simple through tenons, with no haunches or wedges, but feel free to adapt, adopt, improve etc.
Comments and corrections welcome as always (either post here or make them yourself in the wiki - email me if you want and account and have not got one yet).
Great article. Respect for taking the time. Sketchup illustrations there?
One suggestion you may want to add is to leave 'horns' on the top rail and bottom cill when measuring up and setting out the frame so that the assembled unit has 50-75mm of timber protruding horizontally from all four corners. This can help with installation into 'rough' openings where the sides are not perfectly perpendicular or material has fallen away during removal of the old frame. The jambs can then be 'packed out' where required and fixed through the packing. A lot of old frames were fitted with 'horns' on them so there is often a recess left in the (brick) wall fabric. I'd not required when it comes to installation the horns on the new frame can simply be sawn off or cut down to suit. They also help protect the frame during construction, storage and transportation.
Yes, very good point, and well made. Something I do normally do myself, since as you say, it can make it easier to do. I glossed over it to make it quicker to describe at the time, but I will add it shortly.
Sorry, forgot that bit. Yup sketchup... a very quick tool for that sort of thing.
(I spent about 3/4s of the total production time doing the drawing, capturing the 2D shots, and then the cropping and outputting web optimised piccies in photoshop. The remaining bit; lobbing into the wiki article and throwing some words at it.
I've had a look at your drawing here and I think the basic outline gives the gist of the method, but there is one serious error - the mortise and tenons have been wrongly shown as being cut 'across the grain' rather than with the grain.
This method is far more difficult to cut, as very sharp tools are needed to make a decent job, and *more**importantly* you are unable to form the 'haunch' on the tenon which leaves the entire outside of the tenon exposed if you have to cut the 'horns' off on the head and cill to ease the fitting and weakening the entire structure - I would also suggest that the 'short grain' around the joint areas (left when the rebates have been formed by routing after the frame has been assembled).
I think a simple case of error in texture mapping in Sketchup is the cause here... I don't think John is suggesting one actually attempts to buy timber in this format... It'd have to have come from a very big tree :)
But, well spotted... And back to the drawing board John (literally) ;)
On reflection, I expect cash is referring to the fact that the mortice as drawn would have its long side cut across the width of the rail, rather than along its length. If that is the case, then indeed, mea culpa. (While attempting to reduce the number of M&T joints to the minimum I turned around the normal pair, and did one in depth without thinking of the implications of cutting it. Ok with a morticer, but less attractive if using drill and chisel).
Have a look at:
formatting link
right hand one is as was, middle with two through tenons, oriented in the other direction, and the left like the middle but with haunches that would have an edge exposed if you did trim the horn flush.
The problem is that the mortise should be turned 90 degrees so that its runs parallel (Longitudinal) with the grain of the frame head - and not across it. The tenons can then be cut to suit.
As for very big trees, as a very old apprenticed chippie, and having made and fitted many door frames, I'm not quite sure what you mean here.
Sorry about that John, it didn't make a lot of sense to me when I re-read what I posted last night - the old quack has supplied some rather strong pills lately, and they seem to affect me in some rather strange ways.
The beggar wouldn't prescribe my preferred medication - two tots (large) of bourbon once a night, to be taken with a mixer (small). LOL
Right, I have have seen your new link, and the relevant drawings are the left hand and middle ones. These are the nearest to what is required - but you have too many tenons on them, one per joint is sufficient on that size of timber.
The mortices in heads and sills should always be cut parallel (or longitudinal) with the grain - never across the grain, as this gives the greatesy strength and makes things easier when you have to offset the mortice to accommodate the rebate and moulding.
What I have done, is dug up an old text book that shows a doorframe head section, complete with mortice and tenon joint and showing the rebate and joint offset from the centre of the head - a scan of this drawing has been posted to
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