Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue masked with brown 2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.I'm doing way 2 as I have lots of switches going to individual light fittings, and i think its simpler and clearer, easier to debug, and blues are always neutrals.
But I cant find anything about this in the DIY Wiki
3) single and earth
where you feed a neutral round the light fittings, and a live around the switches, plus switched lives between switches light fittings; councils do/did like this method apparently.
It is there in brief at least. Go to
I don't know if it's covered in more detail. But then loop at the light was first explained to me on the lines of "you know how to do loop at the light, and you know how to do things arse upwards, so ..."
I did a landlords 2 bed rewire last year and I was given the talented
2nd year apprentice to work with.My instructions were "teach him how to loop in at the lights, it's time he knew". Nothing other than running T&E with the neutral to the switches seems to be taught or used these days (plus the 3 core strapper for 2 way switching).
TBH in such a house it would have used less cable to have looped in at the switches upstairs as the landing and two bedroom switches were so close to each other.
I wonder if that's health and safety driven. IIRC I was told in Oz in
2010 they deprecate (if not ban) permanent lives at the ceiling fittings 'cos - even though the citizenry there aren't supposed to do such things- people might change a fitting thinking that it's all safe with the switch off.
I think that it's because people seldom fit white plastic pendants these days and it's a lot easier with just one T&E (or two if there are multiple lights on that switch) at the light fitting.
The OP is correct that it makes the wiring simple to follow if debugging so that helps out the apprentices. However you do need to watch the back box depth due to the number of cables on multi gang switches especially if they are 2 wayed.
Imagine a 3g light switch where two of the ways are two wayed to a 2g light switch. You could end up with 5 T&E (two perm LNE and 3 switched) plus 2 three core and earth cables in a single back box and just 2 three core and earths in the other light switch if you are not careful.
Your task, should you wish to accept it, is to modify the above 3g/2g light switch setup using clear thinking and a bit of electrical knowledge to have a more balanced number of cables at each switch.
This is a real set up on some newbuilds I did. You walked into the lounge/diner and there was a 2g light switch for the lounge and kitchen lights at the living room end. At the kitchen end there was a 3g light switch for the lounge, kitchen and under cupboard lights.
thanksm someone please add this link to
Looping in at the switch probably suited wiring with singles. The current trend using T&E means a lot of cables in the back box. My daughter in her new build has loop in at the switches one in particular in her kitchen/diner is a 2g with one switch 2 way and the box is absolutely rammed.
Richard
Coincidentally I have precisely such a switch (surface mounted), an additional complication being that there are two separate circuits, and replacing it required (AFAIAC) a 33mm backbox, untidy as it might be.
Rewiring was not an option.
ok added.
(has to be said, the "More topics" section of the lighting article are pretty much content free lists of stuff, and would probably be better in the Talk page rather than the article itself)
That's one reason I've been fitting Ashley JB's behind dry-lining boxes here as and when I've rewired/replaced ceiling fittings. But that still involves working at height which I guess might be another H&S argument against loop in at lights.
I'll get back to you on that when I'm more sober, though that may not be for quite some time: having given up tobacco 20 years ago "3 pipe problems" have taken on a whole new c.500 litre dimension!
My parents' house wasn't that bad, but it did have live and neutral looped through each ceiling rose, with the switches connected there too and all in rubber sheathed singles, so touching anything caused the insulation to disintegrate.
I planned ahead for future decorating/changes of light fitting, so all my looping through, drops to switches and to lights is done in junction boxes and just a single T&E goes to each light fitting.
I do have two 4g light switches in the living room, with all four ways double switched - it's a bit busy in the backboxes, even with the minimum number of cores.
SteveW
Taking power to the switch is generally much more wasteful of cable, as you generally don't need a neutral there. The exception may be when running table light circuits.
You would normally save cable in your typical (Yorkshire?) 3 bed terrace upstairs circuit. Normally the landing and 2 of the bedrooms have light switches that are so close together that you can just have one feed coming up from the CU and nail all three as with a single pass. The small front bedroom light switch is usually only a doors width away from these switches and so uses less cable to go to the switch and then up to the light than to the light and back down to the switch. That just leaves the bathroom. Well you can save even more cable by feeding that from the light switch in the bedroom closest to it.
In new builds, especially big ones it wastes loads of cable.
Ah. I generally have the landing lights on a different circuit to the bedroom ones.
That would not actually make any difference to the amount of cable IF the landing lights were wired in the way Robin worked out in the task I set him.
In ours the hall, stairs and landing lights are on the upstairs circuit
- very useful if you come in in the early hours of the morning, switch the hall light on and the bulb blows, taking out the breaker as well ... opening the kitchen or living room door and switching that light on gives enough illumination to find and disarm the alarm before the whole street is woken up!
SteveW
Are you still using incandescent lamps?
I have seen CFLs take out a MCB when they fail (only twice) but so far I have not seen an LED do that.
I had a LED lamp fail last week. Didn't take out the MCB but it did take out the plug 3a fuse John M
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