LED v CFL bulbs

On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 17:19:40 +0100, PeterC

So the point of your comment was ... what?

Seems I have looked and you are just guessing..

Which ones, or it this just another guess?
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They are certainly much more common in places like aldi.
I don't care for them at all myself.

I don't like them for anywhere much myself.
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On 22/10/17 14:58, Scott wrote:

Nope - you can easily get lamps upto around 5000K (very cool white)
LED Hut are good in that respect - pick a bulb and a power, and there'll generally be a choice of 2-3 colour temperatures.
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On 22/10/2017 14:58, Scott wrote:

No, you can get cool white and daylight as well.
(I got some cool white GZ10 spots for the kitchen the other day)

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On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 01:28:42 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
====snip===

That'll be on account the 806Lm lamps "Wattage" rating is based on the more efficient American 120v 750 hour tungsten filament lamp type than on our less efficient UK 240v 1000 hour lamp type.
It's taken quite a few years longer than promised by Cree but we're finally seeing LED lamps with efficiencies above the best on offer of 81Lm per watt of the past five years now raised to somewhere in the region of 120 to 130Lm per watt.
I've been seeing 12W 1500Lm GLS LED lamps in Home Bargain stores for the past 5 or 6 months now at the £2.99 mark (both 3000K and 6500K colour temp ratings and in LES and BC22 forms). I'm not entirely tempted by the brighter alternative to the 806Lm LES lamp fitted (cap down) in our porch light since the opaque base blocks a bigger portion of the required downward illumination, for cap down burning, than the existing lamp. Also, they're still less than halfway to the 300Lm per watt promise of the 303Lm per watt lab samples of three (maybe four?) years ago, where they suggested that it typically took 18 to 24 months to go from lab to shop shelf - they're at least 18, if not 30, months behind schedule on that 'promise'.
The important benefit of doubling the efficiency from 80Lm per watt to 160Lm per watt is the reduced waste heat temperatures when running a 1600Lm 10W lamp compared to running the older 806Lm 10W lamp of yesteryear, allowing decent levels of light to be provided in poorly vented light fittings using the higher efficiency LED lamps where the older type would most likely have suffered shortened lifetimes from overheating. The reduction in energy consumption being merely a nice and welcomed side effect.
Heat has always been the enemy of LED lamps. The most elegant way to solve this problem is not to incorporate bigger heatsinks and/or cooling fans (at least not in the case of GLS types) but to improve efficiency so more of the input energy is converted into wanted illumination energy and less into unwanted heat energy. Cree (and to a lesser extent, Philips lighting) proved it was possible to almost quadruple the efficiency of the 81Lm per watt LED which has been the mainstay of LED GLS lamps during the past 4 or 5 years.
A good CFL to LED upgrade strategy is to replace EoL CFLs in areas where you'd prefer the instant light characteristic of filament and LED lamps, saving those CFLs in places such as hallways and landings for a later upgrade where they're typically left on between dusk and bed time. Smaller landings can typically be illuminated by those A shape 6W 470Lm BC22 / LES lamps available in Poundland and any chandeliers currently using 40 or 60 W tungsten filament candle lamps can usually be cheaply upgraded with 3 or 5 watt LED candle lamps also on sale in Poundland.
IIRC, you can now buy the classic "60watt" 806lm LED 'bulb' in Home Bargain stores for just a few pence more (£1.39 afaicr) so it needn't be an expensive upgrade even at this early stage of the game provided you're just interested in replacing you existing ageing CFL fleet with slightly brighter LED alternatives.
Whilst on the subject of lighting, I'd like to make an observation about linear tube fluorescent lighting. For some years now, it has been possible to purchase slimline fittings with electronic ballasts for use with T8 4 and 5 foot tubes (ideal kitchen lighting imo). Unfortunately, you had to go out of your way to find a store that actually stocked such light fittings[1].
Most places, lighting specialists and departments in larger stores alike, seem blissfully unaware of this advance in fluorescent lighting technology and will cheerfully foist an old fashioned magnetic ballasted lamp with, horror of horrors, the cheap and nasty starter switch which shortens tube life to as little as a third of what's possible with a half century old "Quickstart Transformer" magnetic ballast technology[2].
A couple of years ago, after getting the kitchen extension flat roof and ceiling repaired, the missus strongly insisted that I replace the old semi-slimline 4 foot batten fitting which I'd upgraded to Quickstart"(tm) by shoehorning a QS transformer into the fitting (literally unwrapping its outer steel casing to allow me to squeeze it in!) some 15 years previously.
Since I wasn't able to make a case against replacing the old fitting, I started checking out local sources and discovered the cheapest electronic ballasted 4 foot fitting in B&Q of all places (14 quid versus the 7 quid or so of a cheap switch start magnetic ballasted unit) which I duly purchased and tested against the old fitting to verify their respective energy consumptions[3] before fitting said replacement onto the virgin plaster boarded ceiling of our kitchen.
The supplied tube only lasted about a year before failing completely, forcing me to go out to our local Lighting specialist shop to make a distress purchase, albeit at just a third of the SCEWfix price. It was only a day or so later that it occurred to me to check out Tool Station's prices and discovered that I'd missed out on an even saner price - ah well, you live and learn.
Anyway, the replacement tube worked just fine for about another year's worth of service before the cheap Chinese made electronic ballast started to emulate similar tube failure symptoms last week. I left it to the following day to try the trick of reversing the tube, not really expecting to improve things. Much to my surprise, normal service was restored. However, I had a sneaking suspicion the relief was only going to be short lived and, sure enough, it went back to its dim flickering resolving into full lumen output flashing like a disco strobe light just a few hours later.
Eventually, out of curiosity since I suspected the real culprit was the cheap 'n' nasty Chinese ballast, I left it to carry on to what I expected would be self destruction (something a properly designed and manufactured electronic ballast should never do). I have to say, was not disappointed in this since just a few minutes later the light extinguished with a muffled fart coming from the fitting suggesting it was going to go bang in a big way if I hadn't been handy to the wall switch to turn it off before it got the chance to short out and blow the ground floor lighting fuse.
At this point, I was seriously considering bypassing the ballast and replacing the tube with an LED based 'ersatz' tube but the main problem with the affordable types is their indifferent efficiency forcing a lower power limit and a downward concentration of light output compared to a proper fluorescent tube.
Although a couple of those 1500Lm Home Bargain store lamps could replace the 2500Lm fluorescent tube, they couldn't match the lighting quality demanded by a kitchen (shadowless and even illumination) so I started googling for electronic ballasts that didn't cost more than I'd paid for the whole fitting (way far too many of that type of ballast - overfeckin' priced! - to be found on the interweb).
Eventually I found a decent brand, Helvar, at the right price (£4.47 with free delivery) on Amazon to tempt me to place an actual order for one. The only snag with the free delivery option being the longer delivery times. This order is scheduled to be delivered next week between the 24th and the 28th. With any luck, it might even turn up tomorrow (Monday) but I ain't holding my breath.
One of the reasons why I've gone to the extra faff of ordering and fitting a replacement ballast rather than buy and fit an overpriced LED based linear batten fitting is that I suspect the original tube wasn't as terminal as that shite "Shangyu Bright-Lighting Electric appliance co., Ltd" ballast had implied the first time round.
For a mere £4.47 investment, I get the chance to fully realise the capital invested in the current tube and, quite possibly see some additional useful life out of the original, even if only as a lower light output 'spare' to tide me over a complete tube failure as determined by the new ballast calling time on an EoL tube to prevent overheating and/or uneconomic operation of a below par tube.
LED lighting technology has come a long way during the past ten years or so (even if it does seem to have stagnated somewhat during the last four years) but there are still some situations where it doesn't quite match the older technologies for quality of illumination such as the classic fluorescent batten light fitting in the domestic kitchen where even and shadowless illumination is of prime importance.
[1] I tried all the usual Electrical trade shops before chancing on the B&Q example and only one claimed to stock such a fitting which proved to be a barefaced lie when I turned up at their counter in person to lay claim to my prize. Indeed, none of the usual suspects even so much as stocked spare electronic ballasts for upgrade or repair of existing fittings. The only sources all seemed to be on line e-tailers asking stupid money for the product (circa fifteen quid and up).
[2] A "Quickstart Transformer"(tm) is an auto transformer with cathode heater taps at each end of the winding which is wired across the tube. On switch on, the original series ballast choke allows almost the full mains voltage to be applied across the tube and the transformer which applies voltage to the cathode filaments warming them up to full emission causing the tube to strike within two or three hundred milliseconds of switch on which drops the tube voltage to its normal running voltage due to the volt drop in the ballast choke from the tube current. The tube, of course lights up about as quickly as the 12v 35W halogen downlights in our shower room each fed by an electronic 12v 60W rated "Transformer" with no sign of the flicker normally associated with fluorescent lighting in most of the general public's mind.
The heaters now receive a reduced heating voltage which elevates the filament temperature a little above the marginal minimum produced by cathode bombardment alone to avoid cathode stripping and loss of its emissive coating. Switch start further aggravates cathode coating loss by sputtering on each start cycle, a process largely absent in the case of the quickstart transformer circuit.
Using a Quickstart transformer makes a real difference to tube life in situations where it gets frequently switched on and off, otherwise, when it is only switched on and off a couple of times a day and left running for several hours at a time, the cheap and cheerful switch starter based circuit will give nearly as long a life as the QS type.
[3] The only downsides to continued use of the venerable Quick Start circuit is the reduced lamp efficacy compared to an HF electronic ballast and the fact that compatible T12 tubes are becoming harder to source and modern T8 tubes simply won't start up in a QS fitting.
I'd known about the benefits of high frequency AC to fluorescent tube operation for the past four decades or so, so was curious to compare the power consumption of the older 40W T12 4 foot tube in a magnetically ballasted QS fitting and the newer slimline 36W T8 4 foot tube in an electronically ballasted fitting.
After allowing about half an hour or longer warm up time, the figures were 36 watts exactly for the electronic fitting and 50 to 51 watts for the older magnetic ballasted fitting. It was too close to call on effective illumination levels to say which, if any was the brighter. However, I was happy with the result which helped to mitigate the small sense of loss at finally putting 'Old Faithful' out to pasture.
Hopefully, the Helvar ballast will restore my faith in HF electronic ballasts once more. I suppose I should have guessed that B&Q's 'cheaply priced' electronically ballasted fluorescent batten fitting would prove to be of the lowest quality possible. :-(
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Johnny B Good wrote:

My local supermarket has just had a refit with each aisle now having a single continuous linear LED fitting down the middle.
The lighting level seems surprisingly high, and beam spread appears pretty good.
Chris
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Bet they don't sell those, though. ;-)
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 08:32:58 +0100, Chris J Dixon wrote:

That's because such commercial lighting is installed by lighting specialist contractors who can access sources of industrial and commercial lighting kit usually only directly available from the lighting manufacturers. The ceiling heights in downtown department stores are much higher than the 9 foot height ceilings typical of domestic housing which allows High Bay lighting practices to be applied which takes advantage of the narrower beam angles typical of LED based lighting.
The fluorescent tube wins out in a domestic kitchen by virtue of its 360 degree radiation pattern. In a high bay lighting situation in a factory or a large retail shed, fluorescent light fittings relied upon a trough reflector to obtain the beamed output now readily available with LED based lighting without resorting to the expense of such reflectors.
Harking back to my own kitchen light fitting, I'm pleased to report that the Helvar electronic ballast I'd ordered from Amazon arrived in the post this Monday morning. :-)
I've gotten as far as replacing the faulty ballast and testing the fitting with the two T8 tubes which *both* proved to be duds as far as the modern intelligent Helvar ballast was concerned. Oddly, it was the original tube that showed more lighting activity whilst the recently failed replacement only flashed briefly at switch on with the fitting only drawing less than a watt afterwards.
At that point, I was pretty certain, despite my previous thoughts on the matter, that I was now possessed of two failed tubes so nipped out to my very local Toolstation for yet another 36W 4ft T8 tube which confirmed the truth of the matter when I connected it up to the mains via my trusty analogue wattmeter. As expected, the first time run of the brand new tube started a bit on the slow side and took ten or twenty minutes to warm up and disperse the mercury vapour with an initial power draw of 28 watts eventually ramping up to and settling at 36.5 watts, about the same as what the basic "Dumb" Chinese unit[1] had drawn when I'd originally commissioned the fitting some two years ago.
I had to pull the PCB out of the rectangular plastic trunking of the cheap Chinese unit so as to cut the wires close to where they had been soldered onto the board in order to avoid having to patch them back to the length required to reconnect to the replacement ballast.
The tube connections were all at one end of the PCB and the wires for one of the tube ends had been routed internal to this plastic tube housing via the end cap hole adjacent to the mains input wiring hole. As a consequence of this inexplicable 'internal routing' a short section of insulation had been charred where it had been touching one of the pair of high voltage TO-220 plastic power transistors which problem I fixed using a short length of silicone rubber sleeving.
The Helvar unit uses push in connectors so I also had to strip and twist the stranded wire and tin the ends before I could reconnect the wires. By the time I'd finished bench testing, it was already too dark to be pulling the ground floor lighting fuse in the CU so I plan on finishing the job tomorrow in daylight hours.
[1] Surprisingly for a cheap Chinese product, they'd not skimped on any of "The Usual Suspects" such as EMC filter components of which there was a remarkable abundance. There were no wire straps standing in for inductors nor unpopulated capacitor locations.
I'm guessing the problem was simply down to a complete lack of any "Smarts" to protect itself from tube faults and vice versa. The only concession to safety being a small and still intact 2A 250v glass fuse soldered to the board. There was no sign of anything smarter than a transistor; it was all discrete components through and through (and lots of them!). I wouldn't have classed it as being 'cheap', just a little too primitively retro for its own good and for the sake of tube service life.
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I'd think most know an LED is more efficient than tungsten. My problem is buying one which says it is a 100 watt equivalent only to find it is not - and noticeably so.
If I'm happy with a particular light level/quality, that's what I want of any replacement, since it is the primary purpose of a light. Seems to me many think saving money is the primary purpose of a light. In which case leave it switched off. ;-)
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On Mon, 23 Oct 2017 12:55:04 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

When CFLs first became available, the savings in running costs compared to tungsten filament lighting was the main selling point, especially true in locations such as hallways and landings where, for safety as much as convenience, it would be preferable to leave those lights switched on between dusk and bedtime.
Now that most domestic lighting is largely CFL based, if not already upgraded to LED, the savings aspect is rather more marginal leaving the "Instant On" characteristic of LED lamps as the main driver towards retiring existing fleets of CFLs in favour of relamping with marginally more efficient LEDs which use "wattage equivalency ratings" based on the higher efficiency American tungsten filament lamp standards rather than on the less efficient UK and European lamp standards.
The point I was making was that the 806 Lm reference would otherwise require a 72W rated 240v 1000 hour tungsten filament lamp. It actually works in our favour that the "60W tungsten filament" benchmark is based on the American 120v 750 hour lamp rather than our own feeble 240v 1000 hour rated lamps.
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On 24/10/2017 02:45, Johnny B Good wrote:

Preferable to who? What safety?
What's wrong with a light switch in a convenient position to turn them on and off when needed?
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:34:10 +0100, ARW wrote:

We have those neon surrounds on the hall/landing light switches. They give enough light anyway.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:34:10 +0100, ARW

You might trip over trying to find the lightswitch, especially if elderly or infirm.
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On 25/10/2017 21:37, Scott wrote:

Or more likely not bother turning the light on because it "seems" light enough even though it isn't quite.
SteveW
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wrote:

Not if you have movement sensors instead of light switches.
Main problem is when you wonder about the noise outside in the middle of the night and want to see what the potential criminal is up to without it being clear that you are watching.
All easily fixed with a Hue system that you can tell to ignore the movement sensors in that situation before checking. Not cheap tho.
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On Thursday, 26 October 2017 17:52:08 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:

Then other things can turn them on like pets, also sometime yuo just don't want the light coming on.

If it were me I'd have a video cameras to see what he was up to and record, if I were bothing with sensors switching on lights that is.

It's always easy to fix by throwing money at the system.
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wrote:

Not when you position them proper and have the right type of movement sensor.

What I said, stupid.

Sure, but when its clear that something is up, you may well want to have a look yourself too, without the house lights coming on.

Why fart around with manual switches at all anymore ?

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On Thursday, 26 October 2017 22:56:18 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:

d

e

er

the

it

ly

ch

on

em

Another reason not to have them.

which makes auto on, not an idea option.

True, hopefully I'd have an app on my phone for viewing .

Because they are still more practical for most. Here we have a new building with auto lights. Trouble is at night going into the toilet it;s dark, until after you enter then the lights flic ker on as they use a sensor inside and not on the door, so the lights don't come on until you are in the toilet, OK when you;re used to it and know, o therwise you g=have to stand there until the lights come on. So a tweeking of sensors of having them operate when you open the door, ra ther than wait until you have walked in would be better.

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wrote:

<reams of your trollshit flushed where it belongs>

Pity it costs much more to have complete camera coverage.

Like hell they are.

Not with led lights they don’t.

So its fucked by design. No surprise you lot couldn’t even manage to get a system that isnt fucked by design.

And you don’t have to when its not fucked by design. I never have to.

And even a terminal fuckwit such as yourself should be able manage that in your own home, if someone was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane, again, trollshit.

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On Saturday, 28 October 2017 05:35:59 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:

ood

ut

in

ind

t I

.
In

s
hed

t
you're too thick to even understand the basics.

Most can work out where to put cameras, and the footage recorded for viewin g later by the police if need be. And it does cost a lot to have full coverage as it does to have all doors o n maglocks, which is why so few do it, more people have cameras than have m aglocks.

fun gimmicks for a while but teh novelety soon wares off. Those phillips hues are OK pretty dim as lights go, you should actually try them, compared to normal bulbs the light level is pretty low and at the pr ice they are they are mostly just a gimmick.

Yes they do.

you don't realy want the touilet lights coming on when studetns are outsoid e queueing to get in the lecture room what would be the point of that ?
That's one problem of these great idea, they don't solve the problem just m ask it.

How does it know you want the light on ? This is why they don't use such things for street lighting, you don't want to be driving down a road and have the street lights come on after you pass them. Most peole want t alight on before they enter a roomn and that is why most light switches are located by the doorway so you can switch the light on a s the first action after opening the door.

I have the inteligence to use an on off switch when I need to, I don;t need some sensor to tell me, I can work out whether or not I need a light on an d how bright I want it all by myself.
you can't as the circut takes time to activate and it doesnlt until you ent er the room. if someone was actually stupid enough to

you're troll shit flushed where it belongs.
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