Oh dear, the third fault in 14 months.
First was a dud circuit board after 4 months. Second was a bunged up condensate trap. Third the boiler case is now leaking water.
Unfortunately the Boiler is now two months outside warranty.
Before I call Keston and prepare to pay arm + leg, is there anything easy to look at?
Many thanks
Yes.
Go back to the supplier - who is the person with whom you have the contract and complain.
This is assuming that you have purchased as a consumer and not as a business.
Under consumer legislation, a product has to be of merchantable quality etc. The warranty, and time period set for it is mainly a convenience and is not of itself a limit that the manufacturer or supplier could necessarily make stick.
Considering that this is by no means an entry level boiler, two clear faults in 12 months followed by another now is not acceptable quality and you could reasonably pursue that in the Small Claims Division of the court if need be.
The fact that it's now at 14 months does not weaken your position. I would probably push for a free fix on a boiler of this price level up to 2 or possibly even 3 years. Certainly I think that two is reasonable, warranty or no warranty and especially in view of the number of faults.
However, it is the supplier who is responsible and it is up to ohim to take it up with the manufacturer, so don't be fobbed off.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Hi Andy,
Boiler was purchased privately with a credit card from a well known supplier.
Is there anything wrong with this plan, get Keston out to fix it, and get a report with the problem, then either take advantage of my legal cover/credit card or get the manufacturer to take the hit.
We've got 2 x Celsius in our church installed Summer 2002.
Last summer (as I posted a while back) Keston wrote to us (sometimes it is worth sending the guarantee card in) offering a service including all parts for £50. We'd already had the PCB's replaced under warranty and I'd paid for replacing one igniter and one flue hose: they replaced the others as part of the service.
If you feel competent to do so, remove the front cover (4 x allen screws at top, 2 at bottom) and see where the leak is coming from. If you have got a boiler with the original blue plastic flue hose, they can split by the hose clip and the condensate then leaks out and finally finds it way out of the boiler. The replacements are black rubber and much heavier - five minutes to fix. The other place where we had a leak was from the heat exchanger side cover plate - in our case just a question of retightening.
My impression FWIW is that Keston are well aware of the teething problems on early Celsius boilers and have (a) designed them out of the replacements and (b) are anxious to bring early models up to the current spec, thus last summer's offer. Rather than go in all guns blazing, I'd be inclined (if you can't/don't want to fix it yourself) phone their service number and try and get them to offer you the £50 parts included service. Their own engineers (on a random sample of 3) are very good. Alternatively you could harass the guy who installed and he can then join his colleagues in telling everyone that condensing boilers are bad news and he wants nothing to do with them - which is quite unjustified.
Even better. The credit card company is also on the hook with the supplier as a result of the Consumer Credit Act.
I would discuss with the the supplier first.
Almost certainly they will try to fob you off to the effect that it is not their responsibility (it is) so go and talk to the manufacturer or get your local friendly CORGI fitter in.
I would find out who the manager is of the supplier and put to them in writing the nature of the complaint making it clear that your contract is with them and they own the problem. Keep copies and send it with Special Delivery (about £4 from post office). This is all so that you have evidence that you have raised the issue.
You may find that if you call Keston, they will own up and fix especially as it's only just outside warranty. Certainly this is probably the line of less resistance, especially if you want a quick fix.
As I understand it in the consumer legislation, you have to give the supplier (retailer) the opportunity to resolve the problem, but of course the clock is running while this is happening. You could squeeze the retailer to call Keston for you and get them to act.
If you wanted to get Keston in anyway, pay for some or all of the cost and then take it up with the supplier and card company afterwards, you could do, but I am not certain that your legal position wouldn't be weakened because you hadn't given the supplier the opportunity to address the problem. However, generally the courts apply a reasonableness test and it is reasonable to expect a repair to something providing hot water to be done expeditiously.
I'd start with the supplier and see what they say.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Hi Tony, I feel competent to do so, but will probably leave the case where it is ... there's plenty else to fix around the house/garden, I guess that's what these rare days off are for.
In Keston's defence, when I've needed them in the past they have come out immediately, I give them 100 points out of 100 points for Customer Service, same for the Quality of their engineers, and again the same for promptness of service.
I won't start with going all Guns Blazing with Keston, they don't know there is a problem, and I will give them the opportunity to put it right.
We'll see how they do.
The original installer doesn't know there is a problem, he'd be unable to help anyway as he doesn't have access to Keston parts. As I got a free service with the last fix from Keston, we've not had to get him yet had to get him back.
The leaking water looks like Central Heating inhibitor - got about a cup full last night ... doesn't bode well but here's hoping it's something daft like a valve somewhere wasn't correctly installed. Boiler is now isolated from mains, but it seems to leak less when it's warm. (Repeat after self, please don't let it be the heat exchanger, please don't let it be the heat exchanger, please don't let it be the heat exchanger). Water is coming from the front left hand side of the case, there's a tiny hold there that looks as if it was designed for this purpose.
If it's a sealed system, you should see a pressure loss in this case. There are lots of places it might be leaking other than the heat exchanger, and if it was a failure inside the heat exchanger, that would be more likely to drain away with the condensate than to leak from the casing. My Keston was actually supplied with the drain valve not screwed into its casting properly, which I caught by pressure testing the installation before filling with water.
If it's condensate, this is corrosive and would quickly damage the casing.
After Tony and Andrew advice to take a peek inside (thinly veiled Andrew!) I took the case off and found a leak in what looks to my untrained eye to be some sort of airvalve or bleed thing?
Please see the following pic (complete with technical description):
Where do I go from here - many thanks guys!
Ah. This is an automatic air vent, as confirmed by sight and a look in the manual.
These have a little float inside which when up closes off a pin hole in the top. when air enters the chamber it drops and lets the air out. There is a little, normally plastic cap which can be screwed up to seal the whole thing. What can happen is that the area around the pin hole gets crudded up and the valve doesn't sit very well closed and seeps. On some of these valves, you can remove the inside assembly by undoing the knurled brass cap on the top. Generally, if this is possible, the body of the valve can be rotated clockwise to isolate the base chamber from the water circuit. Otherwise, you would have to drain the system.
The possible things to try are:
- if the seeping is coming from below the small cap on the top, see if it will do up. This would be a reasonable fix until the system is next drained and would not be deleterious to the system. In fact these valves are often used in general on sealed systems and after the first few days when all the air is out of the system can be done up. There is normally an O-ring under the cap and that may be damaged stopping it from sealing of course.
- If the seeping is from around the brass cap then you could try tightening it. there is normally an O-ring under that as well and that could have been damaged or deformed.
It does look as though the water is running down the valve body but I can't be 100% sure from the photo.
If it is just from around the base (I don't think it is), then it could be that where the valve is screwed into the manifold on the end of the heat exchanger the valve threads were not sealed properly. Some valves have a 3/8" or even 1/4" fitting and there is a reducer bush to match them to the fitting below. Any of these threads could be not sealed properly. The fix in this case would be drain down, undo, wrap PTFE tape and refit.
However, I am pretty sure that it is from the top of the valve somewhere. Depending on the design and whether you can easily isolate it by twsiting the body, you should be able to take the top off, clean it all up and refit. If you can't without draining down, then it may be worth getting a spare one - they are no more than £10 or so in a heating merchant. It could have been dodgy in the first place. Fixing it by rinsing and cleaning up may work though.
Don't forget the corrosion inhibitor if you do have to drain the system.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Hello Andy,
Thank you for a very comprehensive explanation of what the valve does.
I can confirm that the water was leaking from the top of the cap, having tightened it to 'handtight' the leak has now stopped. I suspect that the valve was faulty from installation. When the last fault was rectified by Keston, I noticed that the Boiler had started to kettle. I put this down to lack of inhibitor (engineer told me to get the inhibitor replaced in the Spring as it was rather weak).
In April, two months after the last engineer visit I did a full drain down (bar taking rads off the wall), ran cleansing fluid for a week, then full drain down and added 2.0x the recommeded dose of inhibitor. This resolved the kettling problem which was becoming quite troublesome.
Skip this bit if you get bored of DIY Rants: {Well, of course the drain down didn't go that well, they never do. On running up a 'full heat scenario' with the cleansor, water was ejected from the header tank. A few beers and a night to think about it, found the float was full of water, but screwing on a new float didn't let enough water in the tank, So of course changing a ballcock + float is a 2 minute job. An hour later, after creating a world beating Twister pose in the loft, the ballcock was replaced - the monkey that previously installed the unti had managed to cross-thread the nylon locking nut!}
Since the inhibitor change in April, we've been getting the 'Keston boiler pump cycle problem'.
Air must have been entering the system via the freshly cleaned valve, and causing the pump cycling problem. The leaking started yesterday probably progressive worsening of the valve.
There is no longer any air in the radiator on the HW circuit, the Boiler no longer pump-speed cycles, the leak has stopped.
The inhibitor should still be ok - there was a bit of 'condensed inhibitor' in the case of the boiler - and a nice spray effect if you're into that sort of thing. I'll get hold of one of those litmus inhibitor check thingies just to be on the safe side.
When I change the inhibitor next time I'll pop a new valve in place.
For now I am happy, and looking forward to a good nights sleep.
Many thanks,
You're welcome.
It could be that the system flushing etc. lead to some crud getting into the air vent and lodging under the seat.
Similar things happen with pressure relief valves sometimes when they are disturbed.
Great. Glad it's worked out.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
The PCB was bad luck but it was replaced under warranty.
The condensate trap blocking: Um... with what? The only possibilties are debris from a) manufacture, b) installation or c) drawn in through the air intake.
a) is unlikely and I would like to know what so I can be on my guard for it (Celsius 25 install next week). b) The second is most likely plastic pipe swarf but the instruction warn about it. c) This is unlikely if the inlet position has been well chosen.
As for the leaks: Where is the water coming from? it could be the inlet/outlet connectors? There are not that many places inside the boiler for a leak and they will have been leak tested during manufacture. The condensate drain is a possibility which might be due to earlier problem.
Found and fixed, Ed.
It was the cap on top of the automatic air vent.
.andy
To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Odds-on that the system pressure was let to go down with the usual consequencs for the auto-vent.
Hi Ed,
The trap problem is apparently 'known' ... when the engineer he mentioned that he normally gets circa one of these a month. The boiler had been installed for just over 9 months before the problem occurred.
I didn't get to see what was in the trap, as was working in a different room.
In article , Ragworm The Abominable writes
The condensate trap is open to the flue outlet, so insects can crawl in when the boiler is not running. I don't know why they'd want to, but they do.
Looking at mine, there is a slow buildup of some sort of dark sludge in the condensate U-trap. It could be insects, but details necessary for identification like wings and legs don't survive in any recognisable form after going through the combustion chamber;-)
I've used mine very little, but I could imagine that a more heavily used system might need this cleaning out more than once a year if the rate of buildup is proportional to the burner-on time.
In article , Andrew Gabriel writes
They don't go through the burner. They crawl in the flue outlet, then fall past the end of the burner down into the condensate drain. Then I imagine they get dissolved by the condensate and turn into mush.
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