In considering which boiler to install in the spring/summer 2008, I was
impressed by the comments made on the above boiler and subsequently
downloaded info for installation and service from the Keston site,
however, I have a number of observations/ questions which I would be
grateful to receive comments/enlightenment upon.
In my situation I would like to install a balanced flue which would rise
vertically above boiler and terminate above a sloping tiled roof, I note
that the Qudos has two separate pipes, one inlet, and one exhaust, which are
physically separated by about 9 inches or so. One of their diagrams shows
the two pipes to be terminating separately above the roof.
My limited experience had led me to believe that balanced flues were
arranged concentrically so that both pipes terminated in an area of equal
pressure and I thought that was important to achieve.
Again in my situation, I would like to locate the boiler within a (not yet
built) larder size cupboard with a full size door opening internally onto a
central corridor in my bungalow. I note from the Keston literature that:
A) The compartment must be constructed in accordance with BS6798 (have not
yet consulted this document at my local Library)
B) The wall on which the boiler is mounted must be of a suitable load
bearing capacity and must be non-combustible. Question, would a standard
4insX 2ins timber stud wall having (internally)two layers of 12mm plaster
board meet this requirement?
Any Information gratefully received
They were concentric to have all inside one pipe. A fan eliminates the need
to have the two pipes the same length. The air intake can be taken say from
below a suspended wooden floor and out to atmosphere on the outer wall at
low level, while the products of combustion can terminate over the roof
tiles. All using plastic drain pipe, the higher temperature grade.
Do you have a suspended wooden floor on the ground floor?
I'm after a system boiler not a combi version, I have an existing system
boiler ( on it's last legs)which was installed in the garage ( :-( long
pipes to the house).
Installed an oil boiler in previous house with AQ6000 controller which I
liked very much, hence the interest in the Qudos with the open therm link to
a compatible controller which will give me what the AQ6000 gave me i.e
2Stage frost prot, Pump & valve exercise, optimisation, DHW control, Pump
overrun,Outside temperature compensation, display of external temp, internal
temp, flow and return temp. I think that's all I need (No perhaps desire
would be a better word) unless I've forgotten something.
Wrong answer :-) What you need and what you want maybe very different.
Trying to help here. Do have a cylinder, power shower pump, etc? How old
are these? There are stored water thermal store/boilers around giving mains
pressure DHW and others doing similar. And many can hitch up a Chronotherm
OpenTherm compatible controller. You could still have unitised thermal
store/boiler in the garage and a secondary circulation DHW loop from garage
to house, totally eliminating DHW time lags, and fill up kettles with
instant DHW to reduce electric bills. And removing tanks and cylinders
inside the house.
Look at the Atmos range of boilers. Excellent and super reliable. And they
can hitch up a Chrontherm Opentherm compatible controller too.
No I am inclined to think that you are providing the wrong answers after all
I was asking the questions :-))
No sorry, aluminium heat exchanger?
Do you have a connection with Atmos?
However, thanks for the info you added a third boiler to my list, Viessman
are still tops. I read somewhere in the dim and distant past that the cost
of a new boiler a very small fraction of the cost of the fuel it will
consume during it's lifetime even more apt these days.
But I am the one who knows it.
This is a "very" well made boiler all around. An aluminium heat exchanger
does not preclude a boiler. Worcester-Bosch are all aluminium.
No. I just recognise quality design and manufacture when I see it. Almos
are the best in reliability of "any" boiler.
Very true. Get a quality make and one that is very efficient.
Not in this case. The combustion van is much more powerful than in most.
conventional fan assisted boilers. The only no-no is putting the
terminals on opposite sides of the house. (It would probably work fine in
any weather except a hurricane) but the law (GSIUR 1998) explicitly
forbids this practice.
I believe that a copy of this can be found on the interweb, if you search
around. I used to hose copies on my web site until the BSI felt my
collar. Essentially this means providing adequate ventilation for the
cupboard. I'd guess 9^28 about 250cm^2 at high and low level to the room.
Or half that to outside. This is not good it make this model cupboard
unfriendly relative to it's competitors.
Keston will say yes or no. I'd be happy to install one like that provided
at least one of the fixings found the wood.
Point taken, but the fan will use more energy presumably?
The only no-no is putting the
Yes, I thought that a room / cupboard containing a "proper" balanced flue
boiler did not need external ventilation provided it is of a certain minimum
size/volume, is this correct?
I would make sure that all the fixings would find the wood, I was more
concerned about the combustion aspect, I believe that there is a British Gas
document DM2 which may be applicable, but unfortunately I have not been able
to have a sight of one.
In article , Donwill
LOL, you haven't taken long to find the lie of the land here ;-)
Beware also of suggestions to draw combustion air from underfloor
spaces, on other Keston products this use is specifically excluded on
pain of voiding the heat exchanger warranty and whilst this is not
specifically stated on the Qudos it does prohibit use of air from the
inside a ventilated boiler-room so I'd say the same intent is there; to
discourage potentially dirty air sources. I'd chose outside air if at
In article ,
If it's any help I fitted a Vitodens 300 earlier this year and am very
pleased with it. Too early to tell the fuel savings over my old RS cast
iron unit but looking good so far.
I doubt it will last as well as the previous boiler which did near 30
years with only a couple of thermocouples replaced - but I'm keeping my
fingers crossed. ;-)
I don't know if the parts and general reliability has been improved with
this new boiler. The C25 after a few years is turning out to be shockingly
bad in this respect. I installed a maybe 20 of them in 2004/05 and many
have had problems. One customer told me he had spent up to £800 repairs
through keston. Another installer was recently asking me if I had
secondhand c25 as he had a tandemn install only 2 years old, with numerous
problems and repairs - I recall him saying the condensate traps were
disintegrating. He felt too embarrased to tell the customer they really
needed to replace them so was funding this himself as a stop gap to keep
them going a few extra years before taking the replacement line.
I have only been maintaining one C25, for a friend, and had the case off it
last week. It is looking in a very sorry state. Air vent leaking, internal
flue pipe looks like its ready to disintegrate, case rusting inside. Also
very handily the burner gasket has to replaced every time you remove it for
cleaning - thats if you can remove the two nuts off which are obscured by
the fan. I'm going to replace it for them in the summer in anticipation of
future problems. I now only recommend Viessmann or Atag boilers and touch
wood haven't had any problems with those makes.
The boiler does not need any air supply for combustion, but if it's
installed in a cupboard then ventilation (quite a lot) is needed for
Most makes seem to specify no additional ventilation, the fact that the
Qudos 28 does needs it seems to be a big minus.
My experience having installed 5 units has not been a bad as yours.
One unit had the gas valve go seriously wrong. The gas valve seems to
drift of the ideal setting quite easily.
On my own unit nothing has gone wrong much. The gas valve seems to need
tweaking from time to time to get the boiler on the right mix. The
igniter seems to slowly droop down in the flames so that after a while (4
years for me) it stops working reliably.
The trap seems to collect gritty gunge which needs to be cleaned out from
time to time. It's really hard to beleive that this gritty gunge must
come /through/ the burner.
They are difficult to service (the fan has to be removed from the burner
to let the burner be unbolted). The gasket is hard but has not cracked on
In article ,
Martyn Pollard writes:
A sad tale.
I installed mine 5 years ago. It's had a few issues, but nothing
First few things were manufacturing faults I picked up during and
shortly after installation.
1) The internal drain cock leaked where it was screwed into the
brass fitting. Fortunately I detected this during an air pressure
test of the system, so no water leaked out and it was easy to
remake the seal.
2) The supposedly factory-adjusted gas mixture was miles off.
On comparing notes with others here, this seemed to be the case
with all the C25's fitted. I invested in a flue gas analyser
and set it correctly. (The installation manual does not contain
sufficient instructions for doing this -- I had to get the
proper instructions from Keston.)
3) The flue spigot gasket didn't allow for the bumps from the
captive nuts, which meant it couldn't seal. I had to carve
some extra bits out of it. I mentioned this to Keston
afterwards and they said they've fixed that. I noticed on a
newer C25 the spigot now extends into the boiler, whereas on
mine it was flush with the top. This would also help here.
4) The flue spigot leaked condensate where they had glued the
stainless steel to the muPVC collar. This left a small amount
of condensate trickling through the casing for a few days before
I noticed. I broke apart the supplied flue spigot and made my own
using the original stainless steel part and made up my own muPVC
collar with an internal recess for bead of high temperature acid
resisting silicone sealant. This has worked fine. The leaking
condensate was spotted before it did any damage to the casing.
(After this, I advised here of an additional commisioning step of
leaving a hose pipe trickling into the flue terminal for half an
hour and ensuring no leaks from anywhere.)
During running, it's had 3 breakdowns. Two have been caused by
the condensate exit from the heat exchanger becoming blocked,
causing the heat exchanger to start filling with condensate
and making a girgling noise until it blocks the flue outlet
and then the boiler goes into lockout. The blockage may be
caused by small pieces of the thermal insulation at the top
of the combustion chamber breaking away. After the second time,
I instigated a program of pouring a couple of pints of water
into the flue terminal twice a year to flush out any debris
in the bottom of the heat exchanger, and it hasn't happened
again since. (It also flushes out debris in the condensate U-
trap, but I've never seen that build up to anything like the
amount required to block it.)
The third was caused by the ignition electrode drooping. It
would light the gas but was taking more and more attempts to
do so. Eventually it was too far from the guaze to detect the
flame and although it lit, the controller shut it down thinking
the flame had gone out. This is apparently a common fault with
the larger Kestons, but less common with the C25. I managed to
repair the ignition electrode for the 3 months it took Keston
to make some new ones, but if it hadn't been repairable, 3
months to get spare parts would have written off the boiler.
I would find evidence of water staining in the bottom of the
case when I opened it, but no sign of any leaks. Eventually
I tracked it down when I was operating the unit with the
cover off. It's hard up against a wall on the right, which
was plastered but not painted. After the unit has shut off
and finished it's purge/cooling cycle, a large wet patch
starts appearing on the plaster right opposite the air intake
tube. This was caused by moist air from the damp heat exchanger
convecting backwards through the combustion chamber when the
fan has switched off. With the casing on, this would condense
inside the casing and cause the slight staining in the bottom.
Having discovered what it was and that is was benign (not flue
gas condensate or primary circuit water leaking), I ran a bead
of silicone around the inside corners of the casing bottom to
protect the edges from this moisture (some rust staining was
just starting to show on the inside at the edges of the folded
We had one or two cases of the flexible flue pipe failing in
this newsgroup. Keston have changed the design 3 times. The
first was a blue concertina tube. This was superceded by a
black concertina tube (which is what mine came with). This
has been superceded by a molded rubber hose. I ordered one
of these and replaced the black concertina tube at the last
service, although mine wasn't showing any signs of failure.
The ignition electrode design changed -- the replacement
had a longer ceramic support but was shorter overall IIRC.
I've just got another spare one, which looks to be different
again and comes with the EHT lead, and replacement fixing
screws and gasket (which I ordered separately last time).
I concur with your experience with the burner gasket -- it
cracks into about 20 pieces when the boiler is used, so there's
no way it can be reused after taking the burner out. I keep
I may have been luckier than some as my Keston is set to
heat the water to only 45C most of the time, which probably
stresses the system much less than if it was running at 80C
all the time.
My Keston is controlled by a computer which also reads back
the burner and lockout outputs, and keeps a log. When the
system is operating correctly, the burner lights in 18-19
seconds of the call for heat signal if the circulating water
is cooled down. If this time increases, it's a good indication
the system is heading for trouble, and not lighting first time.
I can also see some bugs in the Keston firmware. If the call
for heat signal is active only for a short time (e.g. half a
minute), at the end of the 2 minute purge/cooling cycle, the
boiler will sometimes fire up again for a few seconds when
there is no call for heat. It can repeat this up to 3 times
over the following 6-7 minutes. On one occasion, it failed
to switch off when the set water temperature was reached, but
just got hotter and hotter until my computer dropped the call
for heat signal (which happened before the water got to max
As a boiler for me, I like the Keston (particularly the extra
montoring outputs) and I can live with its breakdowns. I also
designed and tested a replacement front panel PCB which allowed
full remote control (including water temperature adjustment)
and remote monitoring/logging of the front panel indicators,
although I never put it into real service. I can see that
Keston have been continuously improving it over its
manufacturing life. Keston were well known for their support
of DIY installers in the early days (their customers for
domestic condensing boilers before they were mandatory were
in a significant part DIY), although this DIY support no longer
exists today. The bad parts supply situation I and others
experienced up to a year ago was not the case with my last
parts order a few weeks back, so I hope that problem is sorted
I also look after other boilers around my family, and it
wouldn't be suitable for any of them. The reliability of the
boilers they have is much higher, and needs to be so.
In article ,
Ed Sirett writes:
I doubt it would get through the burner. I suspect it's formed
from the combustion products. Not seen it in mine though.
I don't remove the fan from the burner. I bought a set of short
ring spanners from Halfords which fit quite nicely (although a
couple of the nuts are a bit fiddly).
Mine is always cracked when I remove the burner.