Kitchen extractors - vented or recirculating?

[Andy Hall]

OK, so what I'm missing is what is wrong with the plan you have posted?

You have the hob and the sink on the outside wall?

Is the issue that you think that the corner sink is too small?

300x400 is a bit, isn't it. Is this their Papillon PAX 652-E?

Generally having the hob a long way from the sink is not a brilliant move, especially as it would be diagonally across the room and presumably the room is a thoroughfare? This could create a real danger.

Moving the hob to the other side of the room creates a major PITA, because you have to get the services over there and I agree, given the layout, you don't want a duct across at ceiling height. The only way that I can see that would make that half reasonable would be to run a flyover shelf across the top of the arch, as I mentioned earlier, effectively continuing the cornice line around the arch end of the room. You could use an extractor built into a top cupboard unit to complete the line, effectively stopping to the right of the window. The only thing is that that might make the room seem a bit narrow at that end. I wouldn't do that for either aesthetic, but more important safety reasons because of the hob location.

It seems to me that a better solution would be to keep the items roughly as you have them and do something to achieve a larger sink or a second one.

Can you put the washing machine anywhere else like the garage for example? Otherwise I wonder if there is a way for it to go the other side of the room on the oven wall?

Alternatively, could the washer go in the space the other side of the sink as you have it now where the plinth heater is shown?

This frees up 600mm under the window and you could put a second sink in there and a smaller one across the corner perhaps. It looks like you have about 300mm to play with between dishwasher and hob so you could perhaps move things around a bit in that respect.

The little vegetable sinks are a dead loss in practice - too small to do anything useful apart from deliver stuff to a waste disposer if you have one.

If you are tight on space, the best option is generally a double bowl sink You can drain things in it, stick a board on top for more space

- a lot more flexible than a drainer.

You might be able to fit in a double bowl or larger sink by moving the dishwasher closer to the hob and moving the washer as mentioned.

Corner sinks are deceptive - they appear to be large and make use of the space but are not as big as you think in practice.

.andy

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[Richard Savage]

Yes

No, in fact I think it might be a Blanco Viva 9E. 330 x 420. Bit bigger than I remembered but still pointlessly small..

Yes, the 'breakfast room' is beyond the arch. What's wrong with not having sink near the hob?

Larger sink is the driver for redesigning the layout

Unfortunately not. The front of the garage is approx. level with the mid point of the room beyond the arch. And running plumbing and drainage to it would require major work. The washing m/c could go under the surface at the point marked 'plinth heater'. SWMBO has decided that the Myson Kickspace heater that was destined for this space is too noisy - I think that you can see it in one of the pics - and wants electric under floor heating. That frees a 600mm space which could accomodate the washing machine.

Ooops should have read this bit before answering above!

Yes!!

Yes yes!

Agreed, SWMBO thought it was big until I showed her how the dimensions compare with the existing sink.

Thanks for sparing time to consider this problem,

Best regards Richard

[Andy Hall]

I remembered

sink near the

Sorry not to be clear. If you put the hob on the oven side, you have to cross the thoroughfare between the breakfast room and the end with the two doors (is that the access to the rest of the house and the back door?). If small children, cats,..... run through it seems dangerous to me. You have the oven on that side anyway, but I believe that conventional wisdom is that the danger is hot pans from hob to sink. That happens a lot.

Typically you want some worktop between hob and sink if you can.

What I was looking at was trying to get the sink along the run under the window.

Don't ignore the notion of having two separate sinks even if one is smallish - fitting a 400 or 500 mm unit - and the other a bit larger. Might be a useful idea - I'm not sure.

of the room

heating. That

I didn't realise that the kickspace heater would wipe out the unit from being used for an appliance. Freeing that space up does seem to be the key to making this work.

Considering that the room is contiguous with the breakfast room, I wonder whether increasing the radiator size in there would be worth considering if you need it. The only thing to consider with UFH in the kitchen is that there may be times when a lot of cooking is happening and you want to reduce it. That takes time.

While I think of it, I think that having the extraction to outside, considering that the room is open plan is an important point.

You could even put the dishwasher under the corner where you have the sink shown now. It loses a bit of corner storage space relative to a standard 600mm cupboard but overall it may not make a huge difference.

You might have to build some mounting arrangement inside the corner cupboard to take the appliance, but it should be do-able.

You're very welcome.

.andy

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[David Micklem]

To join in (very) late:

Are you absolutely set on a 900 wide hob?

ISTM that it would be nice to have, running along the 'bottom' wall"

Space between wall and hob (0.5), Hob (1), Dishwasher (1), 1.5-2bowl sink with drainer extending over corner (3), where the numbers in brackets are 600mm unit widths and give a total of 5.5, which I think is what you have available. If you could stand a slimline dishwasher, that would also increase your options

Washing machine to go where plinth heater won't be.

Unfortunately, this puts the sink just offset from the window, and would muck up your overhead cupboard plan. It also might mean you had to have a normal boring right-angle in the corner instead of a swish modern cut-corner. Not sure. Its late. I don't suppose you could move/enlarge the window so that it balanced the sink better? (Or is it just me that likes to look out of the window while at the sink...)

For a really off-the-wall idea... could you have the dishwasher and or washing machine UNDER the hob?? Hobs don't seem to need to extend below the thickness of the work surface. Probably against the rules.

Must go to bed.

David

[David Micklem]

Funny what a nights sleep will do... I had an alternative idea sometime during the night which might suit (and which I think is much better):

Can you put the _hob_ where the sink currently is? [I vaguely recollect that I may even have seen ones that are specifically designed to fit into this kind of space.] You then have room for a full double bowl sink with a drainer (if you want one) extending away from the hob. The dishwasher can go under the drainer (under where the hob now lives) and there should still be space for the washing machine next to it. Or the washing machine could stay at the plinth heater position.

Nice though a full size double-bowl sink is, a 1.5bowl sink might actually fit better as it would give you a chunk of space between the hob and the first sink bowl.

David

[Richard Savage]

Doors into carport (which is what the over-sink window looks onto) and back garden are through the arch on the left and right respectively. The doors at the opposite end of the corridor that calls itself a kitchen, with hinges adjacent, are into dining room and entrance hall.

Agree

To be honest I actually considered blocking up the window - as I said above it looks onto a carport and beyond that our neighbour's end wall.

Interesting. I'll not exclude it.

I'm not certain that the Kickspace heater does preclude fitting an appliance into the same cabinet. I made an assumption.

Absolutely.

The only heating in the breakfast room, which the previous owners built as an extension at a time when the boiler was in the kitchen (in the corner to the left of our current cooker - I think that you can just see the remains of the flue projecting from the wall, is provided by a wall mounted gas heater. The old boiler was so badly insulated that they had no need for additional heating in the kitchen! Now that we have a new CH system (albeit powered by a Potterton Suprima

100) there is no boiler in the kitchen. I found the Kickspace heater when we were in discussion with the plumber about rads in the kitchen as a better alternative to a space hungry wall rad. It kicks out loads of heat and the cats cluster round it. Unfortunately it is rather noisy, but this may be because it is only resting on an old doormat before it is built into the kitchen.

SWMBO may not consider this a disadvantage. She suffers badly from cramp in her feet when walking on cold floors, and this only happens in the kitchen in this house (even when wearing footware).

Yes

Worth thinking about.

[Richard Savage]

Yep,

Big Neff gas thing - 5 burners, 3 at the rear and 2 at the front; pot space in between the front two burners. Stainless steel surface.

To be honest the sink will only be used sporadically, i.e. for big stuff that won't go in the D/W and so it need not be located near the window. In any event, the window looks onto a carport.

The plan is to put 3 full width draws under the hob for cooking weapons. It's an ALNO kitchen but, having spoken to NEFF they (ALNO) are not sure whether the top draw will be useable because of the depth of the hob.

Many thanks Richard

[Richard Savage]

All worth considering!

Cheers Richard

[Andy Hall]

garden are through

the corridor that

looks onto a

I wouldn't do that. Working with artificial light the whole time in a kitchen is a bit horrible.

into the same

I think so. You have built under and built in appliances available and they appear to be full unit height including legs. I might be wrong there though.

extension at a time

cooker - I think

provided by a wall

need for additional

Potterton Suprima

were in discussion

hungry wall rad.

rather noisy, but

into the kitchen.

They are a bit. Hence the idea of something in the breakfast room.

her feet when

(even when wearing

OK. Then you will need to think about that at an early stage. If you are thinking about electric UFH, then I don't believe that it incurs too much depth in addition to the tiles. Obviously any wet plumbed version does. Bear in mind that if you use electric UFH and don't have insulation underneath it could be a bit expensive to run. The house may already have insulation under the concrete of course.....

If you are going to go the whole hog on this it would imply digging out the screed or raising the floor level. This may not appeal too much.

How about using two plinth heaters in different places run at low settings?

If you have access to the heating pipes near the oven, how about putting one run from that in the corner near the oven. You have plinth space there and it would also be a lot less expensive to run than the electric one. You could perhaps use a CH powered one most of the time and boost it with the electric one when needed. Also, considering the shape of the room, it would give you some warmth more evenly distributed.

.andy

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[Richard Savage]

No chance! Built in 1951-ish under Building Control Licence conditions. As I understand it this means built under what amounted to wartime rationing conditions with the cheapest possible materials and total absence of quality control. Anyone want to buy a house near Sevenoaks?

Yers, we are going to give it some serious thought.

Funnily enough the Kickspace was originally installed in the oven corner. The pipe tails are still in place. I moved it to the current location because it raised the temperature of the kitchen area rapidly to quiet uncomfortable levels ( I know that I can include a thermostat in the mains supply) and, strangely, very little of the warmth reached the breakfast room. In its current location the heat reaches both rooms.

Thanks Andy,

Regards Richard