Yes, old. Cheap used:-) Goes with the "Faltboot", a used one cheap from the early 70's. The motor is mostly metal, the switch bakelite, and pretty basic and robust.
There's only about 3" or so of the pole in the water. The motor in mounted on a wooden bar across the transom, off to the side of the boat. This is similar to the sail and leeboard holder, only sticks out more on one side.
Have look at , which describes an East German sideboard two-stroke motor, popular back then.
And on ebay there was a wonderful sideboard motor from 1920 or so, more than complete, original box, original tools, extra spares. Same model some guy had used in Arctic waters in a folding fabric boat. And I would have bought it, damn the expense, but combustion engines on water a heavily regualted here, and two-strokes a nono...
Or this, another diy/East German thing:
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Combined rudder and motor...
Have a look at this propeller guard for the John Azur:
They used to come here full of mashed up barley. A by-product of the brewing/distillery industry. Poured on to barley straw to encourage housed cattle to eat an otherwise unpalatable feed.
The empty would be exchanged for a full one. Left overs occur when the cattle are turned out to graze or sold off the farm. The deposit can then only be recovered by sale.
Umm... agricultural? Mix of engine oil and hydraulic fluid plus a fair bit of water at the bottom.
As long as it was also 'loved', old and used can be fine. ;-)
Do you have a link to what you have as there may be different versions?
It looks it. ;-)
Understood, however, I understand that if you were to put foil section over it would reduce the effective diameter to 1/5th.
On my Seahopper Kondor I think there is more of the pole in the water but some of it may be masked by the square transom.
I have an ally version of the same thing.
Understood.
Neat. It reminds me of the ex car engined powered longboats you see in the Far East and Africa etc.
I love the whole 'folding' concept (we also have a 12' Porta-Bote (American) and a Rapido Confortmatic folding caravan (French)). ;-)
We are seeing some of that here.
That was the sort of side effect I was envisaging when adding a foil section to the bottom of the Minn Kota. That one looks like the steering might be quite 'heavy' with the pivot so far away from the prop?
Yeah, I saw those on some motors when I first Googled for the 'John Azur'. I assume it might not only protect the prop but make the steering more direct and possibly the drive more efficient (less water spilled off the side of the prop)?
I ran my 40A PWM controller against a 60W headlamp for a while this afternoon, just to check that it worked and see how warm the controller got. It did warm up a bit so I might need to consider some form of fan cooling if I'm running it at 15-30A for prolonged periods.
This one was a reversing model and I assumed (incorrectly) it would use an output bridge. So I also bought a pair of HD C/U relays to make my own reversing solution on a straight Fwd only controller (that would only pull in when reverse was selected). However, I found the one I bought also used relays for the reverse but it seems one pulls in when Fwd is selected and then the other when in Rev?
Because the amount of time it would be in reverse would be tiny, I would have thought only pulling the relays in when required would be more efficient? Have I overlooked something with this one for each direction solution?
I was also wondering if simple prop revs (in the same water tank) would be sufficient to measure the straight / PWM comparison (no good for the prop / leg mods etc).
Yeah, I saw a lot at that price but was suggesting to Tim there were still some being sold for double that. ;-)
That looks ideal (at that price) but would cost more in petrol (for me) than something local but more expensive. ;-)
Thanks for the heads up.
I was thinking of getting one where I could roughly cut it down whilst I was there (battery electric jigsaw with metal cutting blade for the cage and a panel saw for the tank) and then I should be able to get it all in the back of the Meriva?
Do you think a jigsaw would be ok on the frame or would a hand saw be better?
Possibly hundreds of versions. It was a big thing in Germany, starting about
1920.
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That's why I would guess that reducing the drag of the pole is irrelevant -- because it is a small part of the total.
But two-three airfoil-shaped plates, and a bit of flexible plastic to wrap it around, and a large tank to test it would put some facts up against my guess!
Possibly. I think I saw a DIY version with the motor closer to the rudder shaft, on ebay, but it went for lot more than I was prepared to pay for it.
And these rudders are at the back, and moved by two cables and foot pedals, so it's easy to put a lot of force on the rudder.
It should, but it would also increase the drag. OTOH, weeds wrapped around the prop increase the drag, too!
Avoid fans if you can, and just use large heatsinks instead. Plenty for free if you can get at skipped computers. Or unsolder the hot components, and wire them to the inside of a metal housing. Fans clog, make noise, and provide hole for water to get in.
The relay won't use much power, not compared to the draw of the motor.
Maybe use the spare relay to disconnect the PWM when off, and to connect the motor directly to the battery for "full speed ahead". My PWM says it draws power even when off, and while the few mA are irrelevant during use, they will needlessly drain the battery during storage -- some sort of "true off" that can't be forgotten is nice. Though I was planning to use fat clips attached to the battery terminals, and unclipping would happen when lifting the battery out.
You'll probably end up with some sort of force measuring arrangement anyway.
Scale, or measuring the torsion of some sort of mounting bar...
But still part of the total and may be a more relevant improvement if I use it with say my 16' Canadian canoe?
Easier for me to 3D print it Thomas and as I said, may give me a better rudder effect when the motor is off (especially).
Understood. However, I still think it looks like it would try to 'flop' to one side or the other, rather than being balances around the centre of effort?
True.
As do plastic bags etc. ;-(
I already have plenty of salvaged heatsinks. ;-)
The only problem with that is checking that the tags are either isolated or making sure they are isolated from any heatsink and the resistance of the cables joining the output devices back to the PCB. Where you see output devices heatsinked away from the PCB they are normally soldered to the edge of the board so they can just be bent over without adding extra cables. That's not to say 'remoting' the output devices wouldn't be worth doing, just that we are back down to compromises.
Agreed, but less so when used in a dinghy (clog), it would be a larger fan speed controlled to be quiet and I would make it rain proof. If it ever got immersed I would probably have more pressing issues than an £8 PWM controller getting wet! ;-(
Agreed, I think I measured it (on my Wattmeter) as 50ma.
Funnily enough, that's what we did on the electronic 'speedo' we designed for electric RC car racing some 40+ years ago. The supplied speed controller used 5 micro switches on a cam, 3 to progressively short out series resistors (in series with the motor) and the last two to give reverse (plus the others still). Our electro-mechanical one used a 2N3055 as the output transistor and a relay to short it out at full speed. ;-)
Understood.
I get similar results on my existing (60Ah) battery. I have a couple of m of *very* heavy (but flexible) cable merging into some thinner (16^2mm) at the end going into an Anderson SB50 connector. I cut the end of the lead with the terminals off the outboard when I first got it and fitted an SB50 to that, and to the original end as a backup. I have a 50A resettable fuse on the +12 at the battery end. Now I'm going to replace (or supplement) the single 60Ah battery with 2 or 3 smaller (~40Ah) batteries I will probably just fit the new batteries with a resettable fuse and a short 16^2mm 'tail' to a SB50 and have a ~2m extension lead of a similar size so I can keep the batteries in the bow. The PWM controller / Wattmeter can then be inserted in the SB50 connection at the outboard end.
I wasn't sure if there was enough of a direct relationship between outboard force versus hull speed but it might be an easier way of taking an output effort measurement so I can compare pre / post PWM control (at least). Thanks. ;-)
I doubt it... The East Germans couldn't travel much (at least to places they wanted to go) and did a lot of diy and furtling and making-do, and some of that was amazingly ingenious. (Some of it was complete crap, often reinventing the wheel poorly, mostly because something wasn't available, i.e. electronic circuits...) And something like that is easily furtled.
Have a look at these, both East German, both still available on ebay:
We can / will (as well), but it's much easier (considering) and probably cheaper all round, to be able to do it at home, at least first.
e.g. To book a day ticket on the Lea for a small motorboat is about 16 quid on the day (it might be cheaper if done in advance) and if it all goes wrong within the first 10 seconds then that, along with getting the boat and other gear out, in / on the car, down to the river and launched makes for a bit of waste of time, effort and money. ;-(
Then you have the weather ... open electronics and DMM's don't generally like the rain (and nor do we). ;-)
Lastly there is the opportunity. It is much easier to grab some time here and there than it is to take the boat to the river.
However, once I have done whatever tests I can do at home (and some may take some time, like real-world battery run-time tests on the outboard in the test tank) and have suitably packaged any electronics etc, I will be able to continue monitoring and fine tuning on the river. ;-)
Hi Tim, you know how things come to you in your sleep ...has the skip been collected yet please? ;-(
Thinking that at least for some initial load / PWM V resistor speed control tests and potentially the hydrodynamic improvements to the leg and prop ... that for the outboard to be running under similar conditions to it being on the back of a boat ... eg, with water flowing past the prop rather than just turbulating around it in a dustbin etc?
.... What if rather than the water flowing round a circular pool with something in the middle to ensure there was a flow, the shape of a doughnut ... what if the flow was horizontal, along a top layer in the tank, down the end, back underneath and up and along again. ;-)
e.g. If I took something like your tank that is fairly narrow, reasonably long and fairly deep and put say a (600x600) concrete slab (trimmed to 600 x 500) just off the bottom on some ledges or short legs, as long as there was roughly the same size gap at each end of the slab as it was from the bottom (say 200mm) and the outboard in sufficient depth of water above it, I should be good to go! If I wanted to make the water flow slightly more laminar, half a cylinder across either end (water butt?) would help deflect the water down and round etc. ;-)
And being the size the tank is it should fit easier in the Meriva than an IBC tank and take up less room when in action.
Because it's not too wide I should also have room either side to fabricate a wooden frame that would allow the outboard to pivot and a bar extended upwards the same distance from the centre of the prop to the pivot should give me somewhere to fit a scale to measure the thrust. ;-)
Assuming you still have the tank and are happy for me to have it, want to swap it for some fish and chips (or summat. I'll p.m you the timescales etc)?
The dual purpose transom carries both the gudgeons for the rudder and allows the outboard to be offset slightly (avoiding the gudgeons). This means the prop is also out of the turbulence of the skeg but still has to be set low enough to ensure the prop can't hit the skeg on full lock (as the prop is a fair way back from the 'leg / tube'). This is good in that the prop is away from floating weeds and less chance of the prop breaking the surface during waves / wash and puts it in a fairly clean flow of water from under the hull. The head of the outboard still sticks up over the transom quite a bit, even though it's the short shaft model.
Anyroadup, being the son of a Master Mariner and so spending most of my life in boats, I believe I have a reasonable idea how to trim a boat (but thanks for the heads up). ;-)
For example ... in the 3m Kondor, the 17kg battery was just behind the bow seat, the Mrs was on the centre thwart on the Port side and I would nearly be on the centre thwart on the Starboard side bench. The only thing behind me would be the (very light) outboard. ;-)
Quite ... and luckily the Seahopper Kondor has reasonable rocker so not that much of the transom would be submerged, under those conditions.
Like me you mean (well, a sailor who has raced and really enjoys sailing his 14' dinghy single handed in a breeze for the fun of planing everywhere)? ;-)
Dad entered a non sailor mate who was on holiday with us and I in an open handicap race on Oulton Broad when I was about 16. We just had time to get my 14' Leader rigged, launched and up to the start line, along with about 60 other boats.
One race later and it turns out we came 3rd! The guys in the Merlin Rocket we sailed past asked if we had an electric motor or something. ;-)
I'd not been sailing for about 10 years (and then 60 years old) when we took the Seahopper Kontender to a local sailing club for our first time / shakedown sail and as 'guests'. We were only allowed on the water (as guests) when the rescue boat was out and that was only out when the racing was on. So, we went out during the first race, generally went the same way round as them but kept out of their way. When the race was finished the guys in the rescue boat (who had attended about 50% of the fleet when they capsized) suggested we looked like 'the most stable boat out there' and 'would we like to enter the race in the afternoon?'
Apart from not really being interested in racing but (it's been suggested I am a reasonable sailor), I don't think there is a yardstick rating for a Kontender / Kondor, not am I insured for racing in any case.
When rowing two up and even with all the gear, the 17.5 Kg battery, electric outboard dismounted and as far forward as possible, it's trimmed slightly bow up. Being I row for exercise and fun and the Seahoppers having a pram bow, depending on the load it's a balancing act to just keep the bottom of the pram bow out of the water and not have the turbulence from the submerged transom. One up with an otherwise empty boat she skitters about easily (considering she's a folding boat etc).
Now, if I really wanted to row something nice I have a 14' clinker pattern, GRP Thames rowing skiff in my lockup and that has a proper displacement hull (fine stem at the bow with 'S' bottom at the stern), ideally setup for rowing. Unfortunately it won't fold flat to be carried on the roof of the car nor hang in the roof of the garage at home. ;-(
Whilst I have done some hours in front of a British Seagull and a little Yamaha 2hp 2/ outboard motors, I'm mainly a rowing / sailing / cruising guy. ;-)
Nice. Very similar hull shape (hard chine) and could be the single handed / sports version of the Leader (Solo PN:1140, Leader PN:1116, so not miles apart). ;-)
The Leader (ours is composite) doesn't have side decks like the Solo but the advantage of that (for cruising) is that it's very rowable and very roomy. Also a tabernacle mast means it can easily be lowered from inside the boat (handy for bridges) and having a solid transom means it can also take a small outboard.
Only a tiny class compared with the Solo though so not very good for single class racing (if that's your bag).
However, the battery / outboard question was for the little Seahopper Kondor that I bought primarily because they row *much* better than the Porta-Bote (I also have a 12' Gen IV) and can be sailed fairly well (dagger board rather than lee boards etc) and sailing is my love.
When we can't get to The Broads (and I'm not really into the sea or sailing round a small club lake), we can still row or electric outboard up the Lea or similar.
Whilst the Kondor isn't the Leader when it comes to sailing, I can store and transport it much easier and as a compromise solution, it works very well. ;-)
That's it. I've done a little bit of cruising, but my wife always gets frozen because I'm doing all the work... but I can go out on a Sunday morning and have a good thrash around the pond with some like minded guys, and still be home for tea.
We've considered a Broads cruiser. We've been in this part of the world for 3 years now, and haven't got around to even renting one. Too much time fixing the house. (We have evidence of bodges going back over 100 years, and it was only a peasant's cottage to start with.)
Though today the local uni reports 20kt gusts and a 6kt average. It was a bit variable. I'll hurt tomorrow. I ache a bit now.
The holiday we had on the Broads was the worst we ever had. After 3 days we took the boat back and went home. It was very like holidaying on the central reservation of the M1; noisy, dirty, crowded and almost entirely unpleasant.
I can see the appeal, especially under such circumstances.
When we took the Sea hopper Kondor out for the first time on what the club still considered 'a bit iffy' (they didn't know us or our abilities etc), when we set off towards the water she asked us if we were going to get changed? It turned out everyone else was wearing dry suits. It was my intention not to get wet (or I would have bought a wind surfer). ;-)
We spent a lot of time on the Broads when I was a kid, either staying onboard our own little (trailer) cruisers or a hire boat, houseboat, or chalet etc. I've been back camping and in a chalet.
Yup, I know the feeling. ;-(
Nice.
But it's a good ache and worth it I think. ;-)
When I was a teenager Dad though it would be a 'good idea' I went sailing in the Leader and got me to invite a mate and dragged us down to Brightlingsea, just as the lifeboat was towing a trimaran in upside-down. ;-(
Well, we had made the effort to get there so to the bemusement / concern of the locals we fully rigged and went out for a blast. It was 'very lively' (to say the least) and after about 20 mins I decided discretion would be the better part of valour, dropped the main and we carried on planing about on the jib for another 10 mins or so. ;-)
When I first met the current Mrs I took her up to Oulton Broad with the Leader and we stayed in a chalet right on the broad.
We went out sailing most days but most were fairly quiet (we did manage to sail to Yarmouth and outboarded back one day) except the last / leaving day it was really breezy. So we packed up and vacated the chalet but went out for a good couple of hours blasting about before going home. ;-)
Nothing more rewarding than hanging out over the stern quarter on a long broad reach and being on the plane the whole time. ;-)
The Leader (similar to the Solo it looks) is a fairly forgiving hull shape where it takes quite a bit of effort to get her 'up on her ear' because of the chines (in comparison to a rounded section hull).
I used to torment my sister when she was my crew by being on a reach and just dribbling water in over the leeward gunwhale whilst she was hanging out on the weather side, looking at most of the centreboard out of the water. You could generally 'play' with it millimetre fine just with a small movement on the mainsheet. ;-)
Some years after not sailing I took a newish Wayfairer out on my sisters club lake and whist the feel was similar to the Leader, (like riding a bike etc) it definitely felt less 'agile'.
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