Hello,
I have a couple of questions about installing downlighters into a
1930's lath and plaster ceiling.1, I have read a few articles suggesting that terracotta pots can be used as an cheap alternative to fire hoods, What is the consensus about this idea?
2, I have also read a lot of articles about the wood in lath and plaster being a fire risk with the heat generated from the downlighter, but I haven't read any where how to over come this problem, any suggestions/products?Many Thanks
Adie
It depends if you put economy before the safety of you and your family.
Peter Crosland
Stupid, provocative response. Like all things in life it's a balance; what's the actual risk of X happening, versus the consequence of X if it does happen, versus the cost/hassle of doing something to prevent X happening in the first place. Note I'm not attempting to answer the question directly.
If you google this group you'll find lots of info on this subject. However, I would add that you'll find it very difficult, or impossible, to install downlighters in a lath and plaster ceiling, or at least neatly - once you cut the laths they'll detach from the plaster and flap around, the plaster falls away and you'll end up with a massive, ragged hole to fill, around the downlighters. Personally I wouldn't even attempt it without plasterboarding it first (possible over the old ceiling, although purists will disagree); but is it really worth the aggro just for downlighters?
David
The message from Lobster contains these words:
What about hoovering the top of the ceiling thoroughly, then using plaster to glue a slab of plasterboard to where you want the hole. That should stabilise the wattle and daub well enough once it's well set so you can cut a hole.
The best way is to consider the possibility that it might be an unwise idea.
NT
I wonder if it's possible to take a circular bit of MDF or something, profiled appropriately, and screw it with maybe 10-15 small long screws into pre-drilled pilot holes, then cut out the hole using a good hole cutter bit.
Well, well, well - isn't sweet naivity a great thing. I'd never considered there was a hazard nor a difficulty when I did this perfectly successfully 20 years ago. I changed the fitting recently to a mains halogen.
There is a long term intention to re-skin the ceiling with plasterboard as the plaster isn't in the best condition - perhaps this is a reason to push this task up the priority list.
Rob
Not really sure what the problem is here. I just drilled a pilot hole, followed it with a circular hole saw and the only breakout was some chipped paint on the ceiling that was covered with the flange on the downlighter and one lath that wasn't fully bonded to the plaster that partly cracked a few inches away as the holesaw broke through.
A dab of plaster under the lath and a temporary weight to hold it in place soon sorted it. Not having access to the top of the ceiling might make things *a bit* more difficult.
They work well.
But if there is sufficient airspace around the lamps, the heat gets transferred over a fairly wide area into the rooms above/below, and there is no major risk, provided there is no possibility of crap lathe coming into direct contact with the bulbs.
i.e, IM
Neither actually! When safety is concerned it has to be paramount. If the OP does do a bodge and subsequently there is a fire, he may not only lose members of his family but his insurance will be invalid. To do the job properly is likely to be difficult and expensive.
Peter Crosland
The message from "Peter Crosland" contains these words:
Not for most people in the real world it isn't. Safety, like everything else, is a compromise. I /could/ live in a safer house - but it would cost more than I care to pay for the extra safety involved.
For example, I don't have sprinklers fitted. Nor, I expect, do you. However, it'd be hard to deny that a house with them would be safer.
OK, if the OP's talking about a scenario where fire hoods are a prerequisite, ie specified by building control etc, then he certainly shouldn't muck about, I agree with you there.
Otherwise no. Eg, Joe Public drives his family around in a standard Ford saloon car which costs about 15K new. If he took out a second mortgage, he could probably afford to buy a 40K Humvee or something, which would offer considerably more protection to his kids in the event of a bad prang. So, essentially he's putting economy before the safety of his kids. That's why I was on about risk assessment etc.
David
I've just installed two rows of five downlighters in a mates bedroom. That was in plasterboard. She liked the idea but I don't as you only get a spot of light plus there are ten bulbs to blow.
Whwn I re-did my lounge I used some wall uplighters, two lights on opposing walls, four bulbs in total. These are about 18 inches below ceiling height. The spread of light from the white ceiling is much better............. in my opinion.
Chris.
What's difficult or expensive about fire hoods, especially if there's access above the ceiling. And if there isn't access, cut hole in floor above with that router bit / trapdoor insert set that's been discussed before.
If not an option, use surface mounted downlighters or a wire system (which if mounted below the ceiling - L&P suggests older property which often have higher ceilings) will allow some uplighting / indirect lighting which is often beneficial.
Owain
Once they lie on the bed they'll realise what a mistake they made.
even better if you uplight without using uplighters.
NT
Another aspect is the firebreak between floors so the terracotta pots should not be the type with drainage holes at the bottom. I think the pot should be sealed to the ceiling with fireproof mastic also.
Creating a sealed box around the bulbs with plasterboard would probably give better sound insulation but is more work.
The trouble is that the public perception is that large 4WDs give better protection but in fact I don't think any of them have passed the Euro Encap
5 star rating. So something like the lastest Renault Espace is likely to give the occupants a better chance of survival than a Chelsea Tractor.Peter Crosland
Presumably not a Hummer though? (visions of the US military patrolling the streets of Baghdad in fleets of Espaces...) :-)
David
Use a downlighter with an F rating so that it can be mounted on a flammable surface.
Firehoods are used to stop fire spreading between two floors of a building where the hole you made for the downlighter is in a fireproofed ceiling and you have compromised the fire rating. Your lath and plaster ceiling is not a fireproofed ceiling and so you do not need firehoods.
Adam
You can get ones which are inserted through the hole and open like umberellas. You can also get downlighters which don't need hoods as the fitting itself meets the requirements. Since I don't like downlighters used in this way, I've never tried out either of these myself.
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