Guarantee on new boiler DIY installed

[David Hearn]

Just looking through the paperwork that came with our new boiler (that we'll be installing ourselves in a couple of weeks) and I've noted that their guarantee claims that "Your boiler must have been installed and commissioned... by a registered CORGI installer...". However they also have a clause: "Without proof of purchase i.e. an invoice or completed 'Benchmark' Log Book, the 12 month warranty period will be taken to commence from the date of manufacture as detailed on the appliance data plate." The guarantee form has a section on owner and "Installer's details (if known)" bit. Is it best to fill this bit in as myself but leaving out any CORGI stuff, or just leave blank?

Also, the Benchmark commissioning/service log book asks for the CORGI registration number for the installer and commissioner (if different). The front says "This Log Book is to be completed in full by the competent person(s) who commissioned the boiler" and the signoff inside says: "Competent person's signature". That sounds okay - I'm competent but not a CORGI.

So I should be able to just sign off the boiler myself (subject to all the relevant checks being performed correctly etc) and just leave the CORGI bit blank.

I wonder though what will happen in the future when someone does a service - would they notice/complain about the missing CORGI details?

Also, possibly more importantly in the short term is whether the guarantee is valid without a CORGI sign off. Worst case I guess is that I 'lose' the book during the warranty (which is the only documentary evidence I installed it) and claim I can't remember who installed it - that's if they have a problem with non-CORGI installs.

Any advice? What do other people do who've gone down the DIY route?

Thanks

David

[Christian McArdle]

My understanding of consumer law is that the manufacturer can put whatever clauses they like on their guarantees if they are reasonable and not discriminatory. They don't even have to provide a guarantee to the end user if they so desire. The supplier, on the other hand, provided it is a consumer purchase, rather than trade transaction, does have to provide satisfaction up to a period of six years*, provided you can convince a court that it is reasonable in the circumstance. In a case such as this, you would definitely have to prove that installation issues didn't cause the problem. This might be difficult. The supplier will almost certainly try to wash their hands of the issue by saying that the installation was incompetent.

Christian.

*Actually getting the full six years is rare, except for items supposedly of very good quality that failed demonstrably because of defects in manufacture).

[Andy Hall]

OK, so in the worst case, the warranty started on the date of manufacture, median case on the invoice date.

In principle the various consumer legislation would apply except that since the intent is that the appliance be professionally installed, from the perspective of a purchase from a trade supplier it would be a commercial transaction and as a consumer your redress would be to the installer who would have supplied it. This is a messy area because there is no restriction on consumers buying the product.

Given this situation, I don't think I would put anything in the log book. It doesn't achieve anything.

I rather doubt it.

The guarantee is what the manufacturer wants it to be. You may have redress under the Sale of Goods Act, but the story becomes complicated because the manufacturer has stipulated conditions for installation and use in the instructions.

Why bother? If you don't write anything in the book then that scenario doesn't arise.

You could go for commissioning by a CORGI fitter or ask him to do a Landlord's safety inspection.

I avoided the issue by choosing a boiler and supplier who largely supply the self build market. I agreed a five year warranty of parts and labour with them and on the purchase order made it clear that I was buying as a consumer - they accepted the order on that basis and I also paid by credit card.

I did the installation myself and then the supplier commissioned it and issued a certificate of completion.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[rob]

" "Your boiler must have been installed and

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------ The details of the warranty are quite clear, the manufacturers require a corgi registered installer to commission the boiler. Miss this bit off and you will lose your warranty. This is no different to other walks of life, my car dealership requires me have my car serviced at a main dealer to continue with the warranty. If the car is not serviced they can and DID cancel the warranty, as I found out when my car broke down. If there were no legislation to gas fitting, then anybody would be having a go at it. Accidents would happen all the time, and usually to unsuspecting people who move into the house after said diy fitter has moved on. general public has to be protected somehow. The law is quite sketchy to say the least, anybody can buy and fit a boiler, but the corgi bit means the fitter has shown a competence in gas safety, and completed some training. people will say theres lots of bodgers out there, but this is going to change. Thousands of fitters have been removed from corgi for not being competent. These are people who have been working in the trade and still cant show competence, so where does that leave diy man. some people feel offended when told they need to be corgi, when quite clearly they are competent to fit and commission the boiler. But if that's the case, then why not do the gas training, if its so easy. rob

[Peter Crosland]

No doubt somebody will flame me but here goes anyway!

If you don't have it installed by a CORGI who certifies it then there is a legal requirement to have the installation approved by the local Building Control department of your Council. This will cost but is essential because when you come to sell the house you will be required to certify that all BCO approvals have been complied with. In any case your insurers could have a get out if you had a fire that could be blamed on a duff install if you cannot prove it was insatlled according to the rules.

As for the guarantee it is the supplier not the manufacturer who is responsible. Any manufacturer's guarantee is in addition to your statutory rights under the various bits of sale of goods legislation. A one year guarantee would not stand up in court because the boiler should last much longer than that. Five years at least!

[David Hearn]

The point is though, I can send off the card to them without giving the installer's details (ie. 'if known') and should a problem happen within the

12 months, just hide the Benchmark card as there's the clause which states: "Without proof of purchase i.e. an invoice or completed 'Benchmark' Log Book, the 12 month warranty period will be taken to commence from the date of manufacture as detailed on the appliance data plate."

It seems that they may require a CORGI for the warranty, but then give a get-out clause for the only proof there is that it was CORGI installed (ie. the log book).

David

[David Hearn]

I agree that BCO approval should be required - but from what I can see, all it deals with is energy efficiency etc (TRVs, timeclocks, SEDBUK rating). The system currently meets all these requirements (apart from SEDBUK rating as its an v.old boiler) and once the boiler is replaced, the SEDBUK rating will be fine.

It seems the requirements came in 2002 - however when we bought the house in

2003 there wasn't any mention boilers/water cylinders in the declarations made either by ourselves or the sellers.

As I understand it, there isn't a statutory right to having something last a certain amount of time. There's certainly a 6 year limit on claiming for manufacturing faults (different from things just dying which weren't present at time of manufacture). Its wholly possible that problems with a basic boiler which happen after 18 months are likely to be manufacture related - eg. heat exchangers don't just fail in 18 months if inhibitor etc has been used correctly.

Thanks for the advice though.

D

[David Hearn]

How long as CORGI been around? Its quite a while now, surely they should have not been registered in the first place when CORGI came out - certainly not take 10 years or whatever to weed them out!

I would agree that the majority of people should not be fiddling with gas pipes etc - BUT - there are plenty of people out there who can do it safely. Some people can't put up shelves without them falling down - doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't do it. Same with electrical work.

Next you'll be saying that only qualified teachers should be able to teach kids, and that home-schooling should be banned because most people aren't able to teach their children everything they need to know. I'd support a restriction on non-qualified people teaching other people's children - but not teaching your own children.

What's the point in becoming CORGI registered to do a one off replacement of a boiler which should have a life of 15 years or so? So far, I've been planning this replacement for 6 weeks or so, reading up, making sure I fully understand the implications of things etc. I've had the manual for ages and know what I need to know and worked out most of the changes needed. Now, when it comes down to it - it can be simplified to 3 things:

1.) Fix to wall + fit flue 2.) Plumb in heating pipes 3.) Fit gas pipe 4.) Wire it up to controls etc.

That's greatly simplified, but if you can work out what you're doing for each one, satisfying all the necessary requirements as you go along (gas/water tight connectiosn, gas pressures, air movements etc) then I think you can do it competently.

When it comes down to it - its my life and my families life which rests on the standard of the installation - and I'm not going to do something unsafe. In fact, I feel that I should be able to do a better job than *some* engineers I've seen.

The CORGI guy who recently 'serviced' our boiler turned up practically drunk (well, smelled as such at 9am and struggled to keep his hands still enough to do up nuts etc). I've not yet heard anything back about my complaint. Had he installed my boiler I would want a second opinion about how safe it was.

[Peter Crosland]

What I am saying is that a reasonable length of time for a boiler to last would be much more than one year. Many unscrupulous suppliers and manufacturers try to hide behind a worthless "guarantee" even though the law requires that it should be a reasonable time. Given that boilers often last for twenty years or more to try and limit liability to one year is manifestly unreasonable.

[David Hearn]

I agree with what you're saying. Enforcing it is not always easy though. :)

D

[Dave Plowman]

This is about to be outlawed. All that will be required is proof of servicing. And hopefully, these restrictive practices by all manufacturers will be banned soon.

[John Rumm]

Not only that, many people seem to forget (retailers included) that when you buy, your contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer (assuming you are not buying direct). Whatever warranty terms the manufacturer may wish to provide / impose does not alter the statutory rights you can exercise with the seller.

[Tony Bryer]

You're mixing two different things. There may be cases where a boiler malfunctions because of substandard gas installation (somebody somewhere has probably connected a big via a length of garden hose) but I would suspect that most likely warranty claims are to do with existing systems not be flushed out properly, failure to provide a bypass when required etc all of which are completely uncontrolled.

[Peter Crosland]

Agreed but as the late president Nixon once said " When you have them by the balls: their hearts and minds will soon follow"!

[Andy Hall]

True. The possible trouble here is that the supplier could claim that the intent of the sale was commercial and therefore exempt.

Slippery shoulder I know, but....

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[stuart noble]

What a lovely quote!

[Peter Crosland]

Probably one of the few true things Nixon said!

[Ed Sirett]

If the old boiler was put back safely then I doubt that much will come of the complaint.

An interesting fact that the Corgi inspector told me the other day: CORGI get complaints about (say) a radiator not heating up. Previously they used to say "Sorry we only deal with complaints about gas fitting & gas appliances." However they did a trial to see if the gas side of things had _major_ faults whe they recieved compaints about some other non-gas aspect. They discovered that invariably a bad job on the radiators was matched with a bad job on the boiler and gas so now they will respond to a compaint about any technical aspect of the work done by a registered firm.

As for the original question I suggest you fill in the bechmark book as best you can (so that _you_ go through all the checks). If a warranty claim comes up (unlikely with a low-tech boiler) then just produce the purchase receipt.

The worst you could ever be down is the heat exchanger (and that is very unlikely to start leaking if it does not leak on the first day).

HTH

[IMM]

replacement of

I fitted an Ideal boiler for a relative. The boiler had a fault from new and I called out the Ideal serviceman (I don't call servicemen engineers). He walked in and asked if I was CORGI registered. I said I don't need to as I am not making money from this as I am the uncle. He said you have to be CORGI registered to install gas equipment. I responded assertively that CORGI registration is only if you do it professional and that CORGI is only a self interest group. He literally thought that all gas equipment had to be installed by CORGI registered people. I explained to him that the law says "competent" and it was obvious by talking to me that I was more than competent, which is more than I could say for him.

He changed the fan motor. The problem persisted. I called them again. This time the serviceman changed the motor control board, which was the problem, but logical deduction meant it was the only thing left to change. He then looked around the system (this was a boiler change; conventional to combi) and noticed TRVs on all the rads except the one in the hall where the wall stat was. he said the bathroom radiator should not have a TRV on. I said the hall rad acts as the bypass rad and there is a lockshield on both pipes. He kept on about having the bathroom rad with a TRV, as they "always have the bathroom rad without one". I explained to him that the hall rad was much larger and the furthest away rad, and when the pump operates to get rid of excess heat the heat doesn't actually reach the rad, and that the large hall rad will give enough flow of water through the boilers heat exchanger.

He kept on about having the bathroom rad without a TRV. By now I was getting irritated by this idiot. I asked him if a bathroom has some sort of magic karma in there compared to a hall, that works its way inside the rad to the water. He said he will have to make a note in his report that the bathroom rad was not full open. I said make sure you mention that the hall rad is open too.

This idiot of know-it-all then said the wall stat in the hall was opposite the hall rad, which it is, and that the hall would heat up before the rest of the house and switch it all off as the stat was too near the rad. I pointed out that heat from the rad would rise up to the ceiling then up into the stairwell to the hall space on the 1st floor, and it was dropping out prematurely they only had to raise the stat until the optimum is found, and that they will do this by trail and error as most people do. I said to him you need to understand how heating systems work.

[Stephen Gower]

Which is a shame, 'cos it's normally attributed to Chuck Colson (Nixon's Special Assistant)