Energy consumption reduction opinions sought.

[Andrew Gabriel]

I don't really know for sure what "non-biological" means. All automatic washing powders are enzyme based, and had been for years before the Bio and non-Bio distinctions appeared. My recollection is that one of the manuacturers (Lever/Persil) introduced an additional enzyme at one point which got them bad press because it was rather too over enthusiastic and treated some dark dies as dirt, and in its effort to get the 'dirt' off, wrecked the fabric fibres, leaving holes behind. When the reason for this came to light, all sorts of people started claiming skin problems too. Eventually they started producing the previous formula again under the "non-Bio" name, but AFAIK, all (European) automatic washing powders are enzyme based, and were for donkey's years before this incident too.

There was another problem in that consumers didn't reduce their wash powder dosing when the manufacturers upped the concentration. This resulted in much larger traces left after rinsing, and that was probably the main cause of skin complaints. However, if you're the market leader in a competitive market, you can't argue with an enraged customer base who were demanding the previous formula back again, and that's probably the main reason we now have the two types.

[Michael Shergold]

But not very well as I seem to prove to myself every night, when for about thirty minutes I boost the thermostat temperature (turn it up) by a couple of degrees to force the CH on before bath time. Every night the TRV controlled radiators in the hottest room in the house reheat, where they should have theoretically closed down because the room temperature has been rising all evening, though of course by then the radiators themselves are quite cool. I don't need a high bathroom temperature most of the day but it's nice to have a warm bathroom late in the evening and early morning. Seems like my TRVs sense the radiator temperature rather more than the room, but then of course they are at ankle level and not at eyelevel. The always seemed a better idea when on a long extension but they looked a bit unsightly and I've not seen them available for domestic installation for several years. Michael.

[geoff]

In message , Andy Cap writes

I always turn mine up to 11

They heat up in no time

[Clot]

Thanks for this, Chris. I've often thought that I ought to do the same thing myself but never found a roundtuit.

My calcs for a mug of instant coffee based upon data both you and I have generated is:

Kettle: 55secs. x 3000w = 165,000 wsecs. - strange units! Micro: 90secs. x 850 w = 76,500 wsecs.

Therefore, using the microwave for a single cup of coffee, (which is what I do most frequently for warm drinks) seems to consume less than 50 % of using the kettle.

[Mike]

From the Drayton TRV 4 manual

"The valve can be set to control over a range of temperatures from 10 deg C to 27 deg C which are denoted by the numbers 1 to 5"

4.25 deg per graduation - the setting of "3" giving 18.5 deg C which ties in quite closely with measured room temperatures which I log and measure routinely to +/- 0.5 deg C.

[Andrew Gabriel]

^ | That looks like a microwave output power, not input power.

[Rod]

I think you are using the *output* wattage - that is, the amount of heat available within the oven. The input wattage will be significantly higher. (Looking for a real figure and some sources suggest maybe 50-60% efficient.) Plus other factors such as on-running fan (no idea of wattage for that - but ours seems to do that for ages whatever we cook in it), 'standby' load (unless you switch it off religiously), light, etc.

Another issue is the well-known possibility of the contents of a mug become superheated with the potential consequences on any user who does not take precautions. (Of course, much less likely to be a real problem when done by someone familiar with the oven.)

[Clot]

O.K. I could be thoroughly remiss here. I thought that the figures on the units related to the power demand upon the supply. This is a useful concern that has been raised. I tend to use fuses that are related to the demand rather just accept the 13 amp fuse that is in the plug.

[john]

To test a new design, I'd been going round the house earlier today making a truepower consumption list. The 30 year old Sharp '600W' microwave running empty ... 1106W (pf 0.96). One beefburger 1130W (pf

0.95). One mug of water, the same.

[Frank Erskine]

And a side issue is that virtually all instant 'coffee' is pretty awful to drink.

[Clot]

Thanks. A sobering surprise. Kettle/ Micro - ballpark the same for a single cup of coffee, Cuppa Soup or similar.

[chris French]

In message , Andrew Gabriel writes

I think you are probably wrong here Andrew (though I remember the Persil ate my clothes stuff :-) )

We often use Ecover, I've a bag of the original non-bio one, it states non enzymes and doesn't list on the ingredients, I've also a box of bio tablets, these do list enzymes.

I looked up a couple of Persil varieties on the Unilever site, it lists the ingredients, the non-bio one doesn't list enzymes, the bio one does.

Persil Original non-Bio

Persil Bio Powder

[me here]

I was really meaning "worthwhile" in a purely financial sense. I personally wouldn't bother going to all the trouble and expense to retrofit just 25mm. Although I haven't done the calculations, I reckon the payback would be outside MY residence in MY house - I don't know about the OP though. The payback in retrofitting my 50m2 flat-roof ceilings is over 12 years. Too long to make it worthwhile in MY circumstances.

[Frank Erskine]

They're using Watts now, rather than kcals?

:-)

[matthewb]

Consider a real time building energy meter (~ 40 pounds). This will show you current power consumption, pounds/hours, daily totals, weekly totals, monthly totals. Each time you turn on or off a device it shows up on the portable wireless display unit. I have a review of a building power meter and a power point meter on my website.

I have created online calculators to work out energy efficiency costs and benefits for lighting, computers, hot water, solar power, appliances and electric cars. I also have a household energy efficiency checklist.

Good luck Matthew Bulat

[chris French]

In message , David Hansen writes

Well yes I know, there are many imponderables here.

It will take a bit longer, but I doubt it makes the wash a lot longer overall, most washes are probably 40C or less nowadays, they probably draw in a mix of hot and cold if dual fill so that the water temp isn't say higher than 20-30C to start (so as to not denature any enzymes).

It's not something it seems worth worrying about.

I don't think it's esp foolish, it's a reasonable stance, it was more a response to what seemed a critical comment re comparison sites not listing them because the charge commission.

However, on looking I see that at least one switch site Uswitch.com does list Ebico and show it in the price comparisons, even though you can't switch via them and so they can't make any money from it. I think the days of some of these sites being selective with who they list has probably gone.

Gas in a particular yes. Pretty large, old Victorian house, with all that goes with it which makes heating, even with our pretty moderate temperature levels a big gas consumer (coming down as we improve things, previous occupants consumption levels were really scary) and we are around a lot of the day.

Fair enough, but they are way off for us I'm afraid

[Dave Liquorice]

[<me9]

I did a test with my electric kettle v my gas kettle on the hob a few years back. Both came in at the same figure for costs, based on the meter readings. I was surprised. I didn't think the gas heated kettle would be so inefficient.

[Rod]

The 'ate my clothes' saga, IIRC, was due to them adding a mineral - possibly zircon - not an enzyme.

[PeterC]

The electric heater is immersed in the water an so all of the heat is used; with gas, a lot of the heat goes up the sides.

A small electric element in a kettle is wasteful, as heat is lost as soon as the outside of the kettle is above room temperature - taken to an extreme, something like a 50W element might never boil the water. Often low power wastes energy.