Electric cars .. Not all as Green as was reckoned;(..

Http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19830232
The team looked at the life-cycle impact of conventional and electric vehicles.
In essence, they considered how the production, the use and the end-of- life dismantling of a car affects the environment, explained co-author Prof Anders Hammer Stromman.
"The production phase of electric vehicles proved substantially more environmentally intensive," the report said, comparing it to how petrol and diesel cars are made.
"The global warming potential from electric vehicle production is about twice that of conventional vehicles."
In addition, producing batteries and electric motors requires a lot of toxic minerals such as nickel, copper and aluminium.
Hence, the acidification impact is much greater than that of conventional car production.
"Across the other impacts considered in the analysis including potential for effects related to acid rain, airborne particulate matter, smog, human toxicity, ecosystem toxicity and depletion of fossil fuel and mineral resources, electric vehicles consistently perform worse or on par with modern internal combustion engine vehicles, despite virtually zero direct emissions during operation," according to Prof Stromman. 'Counterproductive' efforts Continue reading the main story “Start Quote
A battery electric vehicle, with electricity produced by the power generation mix we currently have in Europe, compares favourably in the magnitude of 10% or so with diesel”
Dieter Zetsche Chief executive, Daimler
With electric car production being so damaging to the environment, these cars have already polluted a great deal by the time they hit the road, the report says.
However, if the cars were then powered by electricity made from low- carbon electricity sources, they could nevertheless offer "the potential for substantial reductions in greenhouse gas emissions and exposure to tailpipe emissions" over time.
However, in regions where fossil fuels are the main sources of power, electric cars offer no benefits and may even cause more harm, the report said.
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Tony Sayer



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So you mean they're OK with Solar PV/wind turbines? I might go out and get one.
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harry wrote:

well do that - no don't. Cost you will be stick beside your computer all winter. OTOH the computer wont work either. So that's a plus.
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Ineptocracy

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I think though that localised pollution in cities has got to be better. This is the strength of current electric cars. We produce the crap elsewhere. One problem at the moment with these vehicles is that the drivers need to be aware of their hazard factor. its no good thinking that blind person will have heard me coming, cos they won't have. So drivers need to have some kind of noise in the vehicle to switch on when in an area where pedestrians might be walking in the roadway. Some might go as far as to suggest that this noise should not be at the discretion of the driver, but always on and changing with the vehicle speed.
Brian
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There are perhaps only an handful of cities in Britain where electric cars should be a must. At the moment the idea of them in suburbs and rural towns is bull.
We have laws against diesel pollution that aught to be more rigidly enforced in other towns. This would improve situations there immensely. But just telling a diesel owner if his engine is smoking would be a great help.
It shouldn't need heavy policing.
Everything else is just political platitudes and environmental stupidities.

What does that mean?
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Not really. Nothing stopping folk doing that now but there not a lot as a diesel owner that you can do about it. It's in the nature of the beast.
Well of course there is one thing, and that's buy a new diesel car with a diesel particulate filter.
Tim
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New diesel cars are fitted with a catalytic converter. Unreliable and expensive.
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And a DPF. Look it up. They're different devices that do different jobs.
Tim
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On 05/10/2012 09:36, Weatherlawyer wrote:

My car has a green sticker that shows it complies with the Euro 4 specification. It is a requirement to be able to drive into several cities in Germany.

Given the sort of vehicle I usually see smoking, I would think there is a fairly good chance of that getting you an earful, if not a thump.
Colin Bignell
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I didn't think bus drivers were likely to thump you.
Public transport produces most of the pollution IMO.
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dennis@home wrote:

Nah. Big E European trucks
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dennis@home wrote:

Per passenger mile, you're as wrong as it's possible to be, especially if you include trams and trains. The worst polluters per passenger mile are taxis.
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John Williamson wrote:

Thats unfair. Latvian tricks don't carry (legal) passengers at all!
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Trams maybe as they tend not to be diesel. Trains smoke a lot except electric ones.
Do your passenger mile figures for buses include all the time they have no passengers? Its quite common for Greens to ignore the fact that public transport sometimes has no passengers and hence no passenger miles so you can ignore the pollution produced.
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dennis@home wrote:

I'm including the pollution from the central power source, not just the local stuff. This is *much* lower in France, where they use a lot of nuclear power for transport. For a passenger travelling from Paris to their South coast, for example, it's 550 Kg of CO2 by air, about 220 per person by car with four passengers, 150 or so by bus and 50 by train, all assuming normal loadings, due to the train being powered by nuclear electricity. Paris city centre to Nice centre by train is actually quicker than flying, too, since they opened the new TGV line.

Yes. Break even as far as pollution goes with cars as normally used (i.e. one or two passengers) is at about a dozen passengers on average during the shift. Our buses easily exceed that. We could improve the figures by not running outside peak hours, but the council insist that we run services during the day and late in the evening for "social reasons". We don't get the full cost per pass holder journey, but the small amount we do get helps keep the service running. Apart from the pass revenue, all our services are run on a "customer pays all the costs" basis.

I'm not a "Green". I look at the figures (Especially the ones within my field of knowledge) without a deliberate bias.
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On Friday, October 5, 2012 9:24:42 PM UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

Such as whenb I'd love to get on a bus with no passengers that was in service of course. I;'ve been on a bus with as little as 3 passengers, it was a night bus that went through stratford and leyton at the time it was the only night bus that didn't go through central London. This was about 5:00am and the service was mainly used by dock workers, the service got cancelled about 15 years ago.

True, but how often does that actually happen percentage wise in the real world?
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whisky-dave wrote:

of course. I;'ve been on a bus with as little as 3 passengers, it was a night bus that went through stratford and leyton at the time it was the only night bus that didn't go through central London. This was about 5:00am and the service was mainly used by dock workers, the service got cancelled about 15 years ago.

About 90% outside the rush hours
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90% of the buses round your way run totally empty outside rush hour? Do you kill off all your OAPs with Freedom passes?
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

They take taxis
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The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Round here, the buses between the rush hours, especially the ones just after the morning rush, are full to the brim with OAPs using their free passes and Mums with pre school-age kids using their special offer family tickets. They're often fuller than the rush hour ones. I very rarely see one of ours with fewer than half a dozen passengers on, and that's only at the start or finish of the route.
There are three operators on some of the busier routes, and no direct subsidies in sight.
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