Electric Bill - Is this Eccessive?

[The Natural Philosopher]

carbon fibre? :-)

[Huge]

We use bottled gas, and the only original bit left now since we moved in is the pipe running through the wall. I replaced the hob about 5 years ago and the changeover valve about 2 years ago. Neither job was hard.

We used to have a manual changeover, so it was just a case of popping outside and throwing the lever. I fitted an automatic one so we don't even have to do that now.

[Clive George]

Gas hobs use bugger all. Which means a) the cost is small and b) the hassle of swapping bottles is small. Not sure what you mean about expense of swapping empty bottle for new one - that's the gas, surely?

(What happens here is SWMBO takes the empty cylinder off, puts it in her bike trailer, cycles to the gas supplier, gets a new one, cycles home and fits it. I suspect if we wanted the gas supplier would deliver and possibly even connect for not much money at all.)

cheers, clive

[Phil L]

Get rid of the leccy cooker and buy a gas one, it's dirt cheap, regardless of the recent price hikes.

[Mary Fisher]

They do use it though. Even just using two hobs in our caravans entails changing the cylinders from time to time.

Propane is still more expensive than mains gas.

It takes time for the trip to whever you have to change them.

Few people could carry a cylinder of any sensible size even when it's empty, that means that there's an motoring expense for most of us. You also need (by law) some means of strapping down the cylinder in your vehicle.

She wouldn't be able to do that with a cylinder of any size, which means that you're paying more for the gas to start with. And doesn't her time have a value? Or will you say that she needs they exercise.

Get on your own bike!

Mary

[Clive George]

You probably use rather smaller cylinders than we do, hence need to change more often.

What do you think the running costs of a propane gas hob per year are? It's about 30 quid/year for us - ie any savings from mains gas are tiny. Of course if there was mains gas available, I'd use it, but I'm talking about when there isn't.

Once every six months. That's not much hassle.

The cylinders we use aren't the 47kg ones - most people could carry ours. Motoring expense? Only if you make a special journey, rather than combining it with say a trip to the supermarket. Ok, possibly not elderly/infirm - but I did mention that our gas supplier would probably deliver for what would be a very small fee. Strapping down cylinder? Stick it in the boot or the footwell, sorted. Carrying it a couple of miles to the gas shop is a bit different from taking it for a several hundred mile caravan tour.

She can do it with a cylinder which provides us with 6 months gas. Can't remember if it's a 13kg or 19kg one. Whatever it is, the gas isn't expensive, no matter how much you may insist it is - it's not a camping size, which probably skews it towards a sensible price.

Are you sure you're not Andy Hall? You're sounding somewhat like him with excuses for not doing things because they take too much of ones valuable time. You're creating problems where there aren't any - any idea why? (FWIW time on bike = quality time, so the journey isn't wasted)

cheers, clive

[Huge]

Costs so little I cannot recall how much it is. A 47kg bottle lasts about 2 years.

[Dave Fawthrop]

| |What do you think the running costs of a propane gas hob per year are? It's |about 30 quid/year for us

We use that amount in the caravan, which is only used a few weeks in a year.

[Clive George]

Hob only? What size cylinders? How much do they cost to refill?

cheers, clive

[Chris Hodges]

In fact it's often the opposite (almost) on newer machines - ours is cold fill only on most programs, only using the hot on 60+. Even then it barely has time to run hot before it's full, so much of the heating is electric.

Chris

[Adam Funk]

If you pay monthly based on the supplier's supposed estimate of your annual consumption, the company will overestimate it in order to get your account to run up a credit balance --- which is effectively an interest-free loan. This is especially true if you give them a Direct Debit mandate so they can unilaterally raise the monthly payment:

For the companies they are a boon. They dramatically improve their cash positions, are easy to administer, and significantly lower the cost of collecting their revenue. They also exploit customer inertia because studies show they are less likely to switch suppliers.

But according to one former executive of a utility company who did not wish to be named, debit payments have become very lucrative for the companies using them.

"They sell it on the basis that it easier for the customer --- which is true --- but what they don't tell you is that it is now a major source of income for them. They always try to sign up customers to direct debits in spring when usage is at its lowest. This gives the customer a chance to build up a healthy balance, which not only improves their cash flow, but it also gives them a large sum to use to generate an income. Some firms give customers paying by direct debit a discount, but many don't."

Estimated meter readings are almost always high as well, for the same reason.

[Adrian C]

Compact Flash?

(if faulty, could be....)

-- Adrian C

[Helen Deborah Vecht]

"Dave Liquorice" typed

My 'primary' units are 16.66p (1/7 of my usage), my secondary are 9.24p.

[Helen Deborah Vecht]

"TheScullster" typed

We had ours changed last year. Ok apart from having to reboot computers.

My electricity bill is precisely half the OP's.

Our insulated 3-bedroom semi houses two adults, a gas cooker, no tumble drier, gas CH, a cold-fill washer used 2-3 times per week and no dishwasher.

Seems about right to me.

[Bob Eager]

Our was changed a few months ago, to one of the new digital ones with the flashing light. No perceptible change in recorded consumption.

And we *didn't* reboot any of the computers!

I don't think the original bill is that far out from what I'd expect, but the tumble dryer gives room for improvement.

This has saved us quite a bit, making up for the 6 computers permanently on...

[Andy Hall]

It's very easy to turn the tables on this game. I've done it effectively with energy suppliers through changes of supplier as follows:

- Look at the pattern of energy use and the quarterly billed cost over the previous year I find that electricity usage varies relatively little from year to year - most variation is with gas usage depending on the weather for the most part.

- The suggested monthly payments are generally padded by a good 10-20%, the estimates are sometimes.

- I take the actual usage figures, and offer the supplier a monthly payment based on a twelfth of the previous year's usage and at the prevailing price at the time of annual review, less about 2-3%. Typically they squeak and have to speak to the supervisor. My response is a take it or leave it - there are always other suppliers within a few pounds, and it can quite easily be that another ends up cheaper if pattern of use through weather changes.

- The effect of this at the end of the year is that unless it is a light usage year and no price increases, I owe them some amount of money. This is a far more satisfactory state of affairs than lending it to them. If they make a price increase during the year, they do not start receiving payment for it until the following year.

- At the next annual review, I repeat the process but add the outstanding balance into the projected payment for the year. This has the effect of amortising that payment over the year. Again more squeaking, but always accepted.

- I do a supplier review quarterly, but rather than looking purely at the presented figures, factor in the loss of interest on paying off the incumbent supplier as well; although generally that is not a substantial sum.

[Dave Liquorice]

There are tarrifs out there with secondary or normal rates at the 15p level. Not just the primary ones. I still don't understand what attraction there is for these "no standing charge" tarrifs is. I guess if your not going to use all your primary allocation each quarter and your useage is higher than that that makes EBICO uneconomic there might be a small gain.

[tim.....]

I was going to make this last point at the end of your first sentence :-(

I've never been inside one (!) but ISTM that a DW fill is about three cups full of water for each part of the cycle (perhaps someone knows if that is right).

Using hot water will mean that all you do is draw off the cold into the machine, leaving the hot to stand in the pipes going cold before the next fill.

I can't see that using hot fill is going to be more efficient than a cold fill for 99% of houses?

tim

[Mary Fisher]

This has been discussed lots of times, once recently. You have control over direct debits. There's no need to pay more than you need.

Mary

[Andy Hall]

There is also a purpose to having a cold fill for dishwashers. That is that if you immediately hit items with hot water, you are likely to set any proteins on them making removal much harder.

It is therefore much better to fill with cold water and have that pumped and sprayed around as it's gradually heated.