DIY Conundrum - Bathroom

[mo]

I am planning to attempt one of my biggest DIY projects - refitting a bathroom. I have read up on tiling and am currently reading up on some basic plumbing.

I need some help with one particular part of the job and to decide how far I should mess with things.

I plan on doing the plumbing and tiling myself but I may need the services of a plaster to re-do the ceiling and also for this particular issue.

I have taken some pics on my mobile - they are not very clear but hopefulyl should be good enough. I can prob get better quality ones if needed.

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So essentially I am going to rip everything out and re-tile but there is a section of the room that will have some fiddly parts to retile and so I am considering ripping it out and replacing to make tiling easier.

This is a picture of the toilet.

I understand it, there is pipework behind it that has been boxed in behind plasterwook.

Behind this are the cold water feeds, the waste and also the toilet drain. I have a feeling the boxing in is bigger than it needs to be as directly below in the kitchen the same boxing exists to take the pipes outside but the boxing is smaller.

This box represents to problems for my tiling. First as you can see to the right off the toothbrushes there is like a weird triangular edge - which will be difficult to tile around - the same thing is apparent on the other side where the brooms are (but prob not visible in the picture)

You can see the other problem in this picture - which is taken just above the toothbrush holder

this vent, which AFAIK is totally blocked up and serves no purpose. Now someone told me that if I wnated to I could just bash that bit out and plaster over it.

So at thos point can I somehow bash that out and replaster? How so? And can I remove those triangler bits going up the wall?

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The other thing is the water feeds. Behind the wall we seem to have 2 water feeds. At the bottom is the cold water for the taps and bath and at the top is the one for the toilet. Our toilet use to have the cistern at the top hence why the water feed comes out there. But now the toilet has been chnaged I wonder if the feed can be taken from where the cold water comes out and then go up the wall to the toilet as opposed to going down the wall.

This is the toilet water feed again

I did cap it off - I dont think I could cap it off completley so its hiden in the wall anyway.

This is the cold water supply for the taps, near the floor.

if you lok at this picture again

I could have the cold feed coming around from the bottom as opposed to down from the top and remove that other bit sticking out of the wall

So my optons appear to be

1) just tile over everything as best I can and leave the pipework as it is

2) bahs out the vent and tile over

3) totally remvoe all the boxing and replace with fresh new stuff and amend the boxing as required. The other benefit this may throw up is that the boxing needs only to be half height as the pipes will not need to go up high.

The drainage for the toilet is outside of the box, and it looks difficult to adjust it to anything else without professional help

the worry with bashing the existing boxing out and making it half height is that the ceiling and walls will probably not be plastered or anything.

Also what would be the bext way to box it back in - using wood or plasterboard?

I suppose I could be fancy and try to hide the cistern behind the boxing (allowing it to open up) but its probably beyond my skills!

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Skipweasel]

Is there any alternative ventilation provided? If not, rather than tile over it I'd be tempted to make it work, using a fan and a flap vent.

[mo]

Skipweasel wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Apart from the normal windows no there is no other ventilation

That vent has been there for like 20 years and I think its blocked.

If I removed that boxing, presumably I would find that on the actual concrete wall there is the other end to that vent. I could then either try to clear that and tile around it or just cover it up.

I can see the other side of that vent on the outside of the house.I am unsure if its blocked at that end too.

[Tim Watts]

Hi,

I've just d> I am planning to attempt one of my biggest DIY projects - refitting a

JG Speedfit might be an option - mates with copper and easy to handle, only special tool (other than for handling any existing copper feeds) required is a pair of pipe shears.

I'm going all copper, but I have some years practise - having said that, I've used JG Speedfit for temporary feeds and have been very impressed with it.

Yep - no shame in subbing out plastering, especially ceilings.

Can you get a lamp in there and retake the dark one with the pipes in?

Overall:

If you didn't mind the size of the boxing, tile over it - I would personall try to tile at least to waist height round the back of the loo and to the side - makes cleaning so much easier.

That triangular bit - is it something that can be chopped off? It's not too bad handling tile over those types of thing though. (Assuming you will be using ceramic tiles, not stone or porcelaine) Get the low end Rubi score-n-snap cutter - not expensive but cuts cleanly down to less than 20mm wide so thinner strips are possible for things like this.

However, if you don't mind the extra work and are planning to tak ethe loo out anyway, it could be an excellent chance to re do that box. It is a simple rectangle and I personally would use 18mm WBP ply as that can form pretty rigid panels with less support.

Does this box need to go full height or can you terminate it 20cm above the bog seat (or so)? Or you might use it to contain a concealed cistern in which case you could make it 4' or so high.

If so then you could put a nice lid on top to make a shelf and allow easy access to inspect stuff...

That vent - IIRC latest building regs require an extract fan for bathrooms even if there is a window, previous version didn't if you had a window.

If that is just an open to air vent and especially if it is blocked externally (did I read that right) then get rid of the vent grill.

But it would be a good idea to consider an extract fan wired to a humidistat + pull cord for No2 reasons, or wired to the lights or wired to a PIR.

Being called by SWMBO - more to follow later...

[george [dicegeorge]]

Thought about putting in insulation before you retile? [g]

[mo]

Tim Watts wrote in news:if8gjg$vi1$ [e-mail]:

Hi

Yes the toilet will be pulled out when I retile

I am not fussed either way if the box is rebuilt back to full height or maybe only half height

If I go half height I can put a storage cupboard to make it full height

Or I can, as mentioned try and put the cistern behind the half height box and make it accesible with a lid.

The only reason I can think that it has been made 'full height; is because of the vent and the need for the toilet pipe to originally have come out at the top.

My only worry is rebuilding the box back to the requireed standard and then putting in new holes for all the pipework,

I would really like to see what is behind the box, but i can't unless its broken in!

[Tabby]

triangular muolding strip can be ripped off. The vent I'd be tempted to replace it with a modern one that looks better and sits flat, and tile round it.

Don't forget to use waterproof tile adhesive & grout in a bathroom.

NT

[Skipweasel]

I did that to our bathroom. The wall is wooden framing with ply and then tile on the outside, plasterboard on the inside. Insulation was present

- 1/2" polystyrene panel thrown loosely between most of the studs - but not all. Since it was loose, air could circulate freely round it, making it eff-all good as insulation.

Instead of taking off the tiles when renovating the bathroom, I just pulled the plasterboard off, stuffed the voids properly and reboarded, giving myself a much nicer surface to work on, and the opportunity to fix a few other minor problems at the same time - such as positioning the grabhandles over the bath better.

As we redecorate the rest of the upstairs we intend to do the same. A sheet or two of plasterboard is cheap and probably easier than stripping wallpaper.

[mo]

Tabby wrote in

the triangular stuff is just 'for show' as opposed to adding stability you think?

Lets say I break off the vent, what do you think will be behind it? somesort of pipe that links it to the vent on the wall?

[SS]

I wouldnt attempt to offer advice on the above, however I was in the same situation a couple of years back (although I did have another toilet to use) I ripped out the old shower had a boxed part for pipes removed (similar to yours) took out a small partition wall and re artexed the space where the wall joined the ceiling. Up to that point I had never tiled, artexed etc. I did use a plumber a friend who was much cheap but I surprised myself regarding what I could do after googling and taking advice from professionals. A lot of jobs are not too difficult if you have reasonable DIY skills it just takes you 5 times as long to do them (my opinion) One thing we changed was putting a new loo in the corner at 45% which gave us a lot more space (en suite)

Just trying to offer some encouragement rather than advice.

[Tim Watts]

straight onto it - it's waterproof and the insulation properties are pretty good. If tiles are not required full height it could be skimmed too.

The advantage would be it can be dot'n'dabbed onto the existing walls (with or without stripping any existing PB) so only one layer to apply.

celotex-plasterboard composite is another option, but then you've got PB back in the equation with all of its susceptabilty to getting wet.

[Tim Watts]

And here it is at the 90% stage:

Hi

Given the plumbing in there, I would recommend a way of peering into it

- especially more so if you have to have an AAV (air valve) in there as those things may require occasional replacement.

Continuing full height as a cupboard would be an excellent idea - load of storage and you can make the shelves, including the base shelf removable allowing access to the cistern and/or pipes.

Building the box is easy.

If you see mine, that was hard because it had to be so far back to clear the back of the bog, yet so far forward to clear the 110mm junction - in the end I made it stepped/overlapped with a 45 degree turn on the tiles as it was impossible to do with a single sheet.

Yours is much easier. In the simplest form, 2 battens on the walls, vertical; one on the right for the main panel to sit back against and one on the left for the side panel to sit on.

Cut 2 rectangular 18mm ply panels, butt joint the left forward corner, screw into both battens and screw through the butt joint. If you fancied using thinner ply you could run a batten down the inside of the butt joint and screw both ply sections to that and screw+glue some 1x2" type batten to the back of the ply sheets to stiffen it.

But, if you draw it out, you should find the basic box is a very easy construction job involving ply plus a few lenghts of 2x1" PAR (44x18mm finished size if memory serves). Use Wickes or a timber merchant for the wood - it might actually be straight and stay that way,

Watch the ply - even some of that is turning out to be skewed and bent in the shops, I've noticed recently.

I would recommend BAL Greenstar or BAL Bluestar for the walls for tiling

- a very nice tub adhesive - Screwfix have it. But I would recommend a different adhesive for tiling over the panels - a Class II flexible will mean nothing cracks if there is a flexing or movement. Ditto for the grout.

Rather than rambling on here, I suggest you start a new thread on adhesives and grouts and tiling tools when the time is right (or now if you want). There are a lot of options and a few simple choices now will make that part so much easier and better.

OK - holes in panel.

This is more bitchy...

The only way IME to get it right is - and this assumes you can take your time and have another loo in the house:

Make up the new boxing - screwed with a couple of screws so you can mount and demount it a few times.

Have the new loo and assorted connectors ready and dry fit.

With a dry fitted assembly, you can use a square to drop the sides of the pan connector down onto lines on the floor. Take the vertical measurements and mark up the ply and jigsaw the hole.

For other pipes, if they run close to the wall, it is easiest to fit them then cut "U"s out of the edges of the ply so it just fits over them. You can glue in a little bit of ply offcut onto the wall batten if you want a surface to tile onto right behind the pipe.

Then basically fit the boxing, check the loo refits OK, or enlarge the hole(s) if needed. If they are a little off or oversized, it's OK as the tiles can overhang the edge and these can be trimmed for a prefect finish after the loo is in, allowing 4-5mm for silicone.

Another trick is after dry fitting the loo, is to support the pan connector in place (pack it in place with offcuts of wood round the back and underneath.

Then take the loo out and do your tiling while you have more space. If the pan connector remains in the correct place you can cut the tiles to get a nice fit around it. Refit loo after grouting and the only fiddly bit then is to silicone round the soil pipe and flush pipes - I would do this after fitting the loo as it may need to move slighlty to accept the loo spigot.

Cheers

Tim

[Tabby]

yes. even if it did add strength, the tile adhesive will do likewise. I'd check the boxing though, that its firm to tile onto, no use trying to tile, quarter inch ply etc.

maybe, maybe not. Does it matter?

NT

[Donwill]

I've refurbished 5 bath/shower rooms in my time and I've learned a little every time I subsequently used them.

I've compiled a list of things that I think are important, in addition to the normal bathroom necessities of course.

1) Block up the window, thereby reducing condensation and the chance to introduce substantial insulation in the cavity also build in a duct for fan. 2) Fit sink into a sink unit so that you have a decent flat area to put your sponge bag etc so that they don't keep falling into sink/ floor/ toilet etc. 3) Introduce a drawer unit to allocate a drawer to each member of the family so they can keep their nick nacs in their own drawer so don't clutter up the bathroom. 4) Large mirrors (at least 4ft wide by 3 ft high) are essential to make the room look bigger and to remind you to lose weight at the earliest opportunity. 5) Mirror heater to allow a mist free panel (30ins high by 20ins wide) in the mirror above the sink. 6) Install water softener if applicable. 7) Lots of light from 5ft batten fluorescent lamp.(not these silly down lighters which follow fashion but little else). 8) White rippled tiles to reflect light ( plain ones look institutional) add frieze tiles at approx 3ft above floor to break up the expanse of white. 9) make sure the radiator is at least twice the calculated/ required size ( you can always turn it down). Fan heaters are a no no as the air movement will cause evaporative cooling on your skin after stepping out of shower/bath.

I'm sure there are other idiosyncrasies that people prefer, Hope this helps. Cheers, Don

[The Natural Philosopher]

My advice is strip out everything you can, and go back to bare brickwork, and remove any studwork that exists in terms of boxing.

I have done my boxing with any old crap - bits of rough chip, or scrap MDF. Bot take tiles well, and boxing is not generally subjected to much splashing so water proofness is not a big deal.

You can box in plasterboard, but that needs more structural support.

As far as the vent goes you should actually install and extractor fan somewhere anyway. Whether that vent is usable in that conctxt, I can't say.

[mo]

Tim Watts wrote in

Thanks for all the advice, your bathroom looks nice. Especially the pipes under the sink!

How did you connect up the taps in the bath?

[Tim Watts]

With some amount of fiddling.

The key was that the wall behind the bath has a lintle supported opening into the next room big enough to lie into and work under the taps - in this sense it is actually easier to access everything than a normal bath.

I did careful 3D compound bends to mate between the taps and the incoming pipework - that was fiddly and took 3 goes but was worth it as the taps are nice and firm thanks to the extra support from the pipe. But you could use tap tails for ease.

Sounds good.

If you can find a ready made about the right size now, you have the option to design your boxing to either match it or at least mate cleanly

- worth looking into.

The key thing is that they generally have a horizontal base lip that sits on the worktop. You'd find it harder to take a generic basin with a curved profile and sit it nicely though it can be done.

Worth a visit to BathStore or some other place where you can see a variety of sinks in the raw.

I have a saying that if you don't feel upto the job, design the job down to your comfort level - always worked for me :) and usually quite practical where you have a lot of design flexibility.

[Phil L]

I wouldn't take all this boxing in away and replace, just take those hideous triangular sides off and re-box at 90 degrees and tile over.

As far as the vent's concerned, just take it off and tile over it - they were all the rage when eveyone had coal fires, nowadays they are just an eyesore - get an extractor fan and install that prior to any plasterwork.

Re= the ceiling, I wouldn't bother plastering it, I'd clad it in upvc panels, about half the price of having it plastered

[Donwill]

I'm interested in your idea of upvc cladding for ceilings. I have certain areas in the house that could do with having the ceiling redone/recovered but not the mess involved with re plastering.

How would you fix the panels up there? and is there a fire risk using upvc panels?

Cheers Don

[Phil L]

I used upvc coverboard in my kitchen, looks quite fetching :-) The panels are 300mm wide and 5m long and were about £8 each - one board covered 2ft of ceiling as it was just less than 2.5 in width, so an eighteen foot long kitchen took 8 boards = 64 quid, plus about 4 tubes of caulking to stick them on ( each one was nailed along the tongue and a generous couple of beads of caulking to hold it firm) they've been up about 10 months now and there's no discolouration, warping or anything else. My bathroom walls are done in them too around the shower area nad these are stuck over old tiles with silicone, the other two walls are painted lining paper, total cost for bathroom, about £70.

Not arsed about any fire risk - by the time the ceiling gets hot enough to melt, I'll either be dead or outside watching the spectacle.

You can buy high-gloss and also multi-coloured upvc panels, but I don't like these, plus they cost about 10 times as much per m2