Disputed bill being passed to "a third party"

[Edward]

(Previously posted on uk.legal but didn't get a very useful response)

Last year we had a new bathroom and central heating boiler fitted. Just afterwards another company were fitting some underfloor heating in our new extension.

It came to light that the central heating system lacked a tap or valve to allow the system to be topped up. We asked them to come out and fit this, which they did (not without the employee telling my wife to f*ck off, however). They then sent us a bill for £35 for the work. We disputed this, saying that the valve had never been there to our knowledge, and that it should have been fitted as part of the work for which we had already paid them. They replied by saying that either we or the second company fitting the underfloor heating must have broken it, claiming that the second company would have needed it to complete the work. When we questioned this company they couldn't remember whether the tap was there or not, but in its absence would simply have used other tools to operate the valve. The second company telephoned the first company to put their side but the first company never responded.

The first company have sent us repeated reminders to pay the £35, despite our claim that we don't owe them for the work. Their invoice states that "overdue accounts will be passed to a third party for collection. A collection fee will be added to your invoice value." Since we dispute whether we should pay this, should they not instead issue a claim in the Small Claims Court?

Thoughts? No-one from us or the second company damaged the valve, and their employee was extremely aggressive. I know it's only £35 but it's MY £35.

Thanks

Edward

[Andy Cap]

Hi

As my solicitor told me over a far more serious matter, "Taking action on principle can prove extremely expensive ", aside from the inevitable stress. Even if you eventually won, you will have spent far more out in miscellaneous expenses. Put it down to experience and move on. Just my two-penneth.

Andy

[Andy Champ]

Doesn't that work both ways?

Andy (other one)

[Onetap]

Might it be a Vaillant boiler? If it needs a fill connection, and there isn't one, how did they fill the heating system in the first place?

That aside, if they had negligently omitted to fit the valve, you asked them to fit the valve and they did, they're jolly nice chaps. If they didn't have an order, they haven't got a contract and won't have a chance of winning a county court case.

I'd be more concerned about what else they may have omitted (inhibitor?).

[boltmail]

You could just ignore them, but I think you'd be better off writing to them setting out the reasons why you will not pay their bill. What they are saying (effectively) is that they have given upon collection but will sell your 'debt' to a debt collection agency, who may proceed to send you endless letters. If you have explained why you aren't paying the bill,you can send that to the debt collection agency when they send you their first letter. They will lose interest. It isn't worth anyone suing anyone over =A335. It barely pays for a letter or three.

[newshound]

You could just ignore them, but I think you'd be better off writing to them setting out the reasons why you will not pay their bill. What they are saying (effectively) is that they have given upon collection but will sell your 'debt' to a debt collection agency, who may proceed to send you endless letters. If you have explained why you aren't paying the bill,you can send that to the debt collection agency when they send you their first letter. They will lose interest. It isn't worth anyone suing anyone over £35. It barely pays for a letter or three.

I'd write to them once or twice, but probably give in at the debt collector stage. Since you are obviously telling the truth I can't see any good reason not to post the name of the awkward firm!

There's also that Which? system for posting recommendations or warnings, ISTR plumbers is one of the biggest uses.

[meow2222]

If they pass it to debt collection, all you need do is say you dispute the claimed debt, and the colection agency has no legal power to collect or charge anything.

The only way anyone will get =C2=A3 out of you is

- if you've already entered into a written contract in which you agreed to pay, either for the work or for collection costs or legal fees

- a small claims case decides against you

- you pay them without needing to

The short version is if they dont pay you there's really very little they can do, unless you have a written agreement

NT

[The Medway Handyman]

Sounds to me like a 'filling loop'? Standard equipment on a combi boiler AFAIK.

If they installed a boiler they must be CORGI registered. Complain to CORGI.

It may just be a standard threat, but these third party collection agencies are total bastards. They will buy the £35 debt for say £5 and threaten you for £35 + £50 costs. They rely on intimidation, but will back down if resisted strongly.

Check with CORGI first & use their report to beat the supplier. Do watch out for these unscrupulous third party collection agencies though.

Last time I wanted a re mortgage I found I had a perfect credit score, but my spouse had a negative rating.

Turned out to be a mail order company who had added 'payment protection insurance' to her account without her agreement. She wrote to them 5 times saying she hand't agreed to it & didn't want it & got no reply, in the end she cancelled payment until they responded. Next thing we know her credit rating is is shreds due to one of these bastard collection agencies.

You cannot trust these slime ball third parties.

Take the initiative, check out CORGI, threaten the company with a report to CORGI & dire legal action if they blecken your name.

[boltmail]

On 13 Jun, 22:48, "newshound" wrote:>

Feint of heart. IAAL. NT is right.

[Martin Pentreath]

I had a right old ding-dong battle with Virgin Media (who are an absolute disgrace), the details of which I shan't bore you with. However, it ended with them saying we owed them some paltry amount (I forget now, about =A350) which we most certainly did not, and passing the thing on to debt collectors. The problem with debt collectors is that they will nag with increasing aggression (espeically of they have your phone number) but THEY won't start court proceedings to resolve the dispute because they will usually lose. I brought the thing to a head by sending them a cheque for what they asked for with a letter saying that I didn't owe them it, I was only sending it to prevent their continual harassment and any credit record problems, and that unless they accepted I was right and sent the money back within 14 days I would sue them for it.

After 14 days I issued the claim through the online small claims procedure for the money plus a bit for my time and trouble, they didn't put in a defence, and I got judgement against them, which they paid with thoroughly bad grace.

Cheers!

Martin

[cynic]

I like it - this should go in the faqs

[Andy Hall]

Excellent. That one is definitely going into my file for future use. As you say, the real issue is the ability of these scum to file unfavourable credit records which are then a major PITA to get undone.

In general, I have found that it's a good strategy to arrange to owe a supplier money if there's a dispute and let them attempt to sue me.

As a matter of interest, how much did you request for the time and trouble element, how did you phrase what it was for and how long did it take to get the money from the scumbags? Did you have to press them for payment?

[Andy Cap]

Morally for sure but as an individual, you simply don't usually have the resources.

Andy (the original and still the best) ;-)

[Martin Pentreath]

I only put twenty quid in for my time - if I'd known they wouldn't file a defence I would have made in more! I can't remember exactly what I put on the claim form alongside it, some reference to telephone and postal expenses I think.

Once I had the judgement I did think they might try to avoid paying it. The defendant debt collectors were Wescot, a brief Google will show you what sort of people they are, but let's say they won't win any prizes for honourable business practices. I was quite lookinng forward to getting another firm of equally unpleasant people to chase them for the money. However, one terse letter from me produced an equally terse one from them with a cheque for the full amount.

Cheers!

Martin

[The Natural Philosopher]

I thought it might be worth pointing out teh way this works 'behind the scenes' having been someone who did use debt collection agencies.

It all starts with your accountant who syas 'you have 15 thousand unpaid invoices on your books'.

The rotteweilers in the accounts department are told to phone them all up or send rude letters.

Some pay.

Others dispute, for various reasons, which costs you time and trouble to decide whether they are valid or not. I remember one guy who wouldn't pay until a minor bug in the *documentation* was fixed. I said "pay, or send the product back: your choice" He paid.

You are left with a hardcore of people who are mostly trying it on, going broke and the like, so you essentially sell the debt to a third party at a discount.

You get most of the money, the accountant is happy because he can draw a line, and everybody goes on doing their stuff.

Except the one or two customers with valid complaints who are no longer any of your business as it were.

[stuart noble]

No. Certainly with WB it's an optional add-on, which may be rather the point here. The installers probably should have suggested it but, if they're putting things right for £35, I'd say that was a reasonable arrangement.

[tony sayer]

Good!, Could do with a good debt collector for a scrote we've picked up .. upper class toff who thinks people should work for free for him!..

Pity they don't have those old stropped Wilkinson's boyz around;)..

[The Medway Handyman]

WB? How would you top up the system without a filling loop?

[stuart noble]

Worcester Bosch. Often the plumbing already incorporates that.

[Ed Sirett]

You are in the best position as they have to try and get the £35 from you.

There are a number of pitfalls though.

1) They may use a very nasty and heavy handed debt collection agency, you may enjoy seeing them try to bluff you into paying up or will you be stressed by it? 2) Do you or will you need to borrow money? Getting (however unfairly) a bad credit rating might cost you more on the increased payments on your next vehicle? 3) They can't send in the bailiffs until there has been a court judgement against you. They are unlikely to go to court over the £35. If they do you might be someone who will enjoy putting your side of the case to the judge and winning. Should you loose then you will have to pay for the fun. 4) There must have been some way for the water to be added originally. Possible the boiler had an internal loop (WB or Vaillant?). In which case they should have SHOWN you how to top up. So they are still at fault. 5) I am not known for high charges and I would have said adding a filling loop would have been £60.