in the sense that they foolishly believed the power company when they sent out the "you MUST have a smart meter installed" mail-shot, perhaps
Or even the "we will be calling on XX/YY to install your new smart meter, please make sure to be in on that day"
tim
Yup?
I don't, particularly?
I don't?
And many haven't. Are you getting to a point?
Ok?
Brought about by the change of energy supplier.
"Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and, as a result, a new smart meter has been installed."
Please try to stick to the truth, even if you can't understand why some people don't think exactly like you.
Yes, and?
What's that got to do with a gas meter change specifically brought on by a supplier change and that in turn causing other issues ... and me referring to those issues as validation as part of the reason why I (and many others) might not want to rock the boat for what might be insignificant savings, when viewed against all other expenditures?
Cheers, T i m
The starting point would be BS 6172:2010 "Specification for installation, servicing and maintenance of domestic gas cooking appliances (2nd and 3rd family gases)"
In general it says: "8.2 Clearance around a cooking appliance and within the kitchen furniture shall be in accordance with the appliance manufacturer's instructions regarding the supply of air, the discharge of combustion products, and protection against excessive temperatures.
COMMENTARY ON 8.2 In the absence of specific guidance in the manufacturer's instructions, Figure 1 should be followed for general guidance on clearance zones."
Figure one shows 450mm vertical clearance to the base of adjacent wall units, and 760mm directly over the hob.
Indeed - the installation instructions can override that.
There are some if the power output of the open flue device is over 7kW and/or its installed in an "internal kitchen" (where Internal Kitchen is
"3.7 internal kitchen kitchen in which there is no opening communicating directly with outside air"
The above BS refers off to BS5440-2:20090 "Flueing and ventilation for gas appliances of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net (1st, 2nd and 3rd family gases)" at this point.
Section 6.3.1 of that:
"6.3.1 Open-flued appliance installed in a room or internal space Where an open-flued appliance with a rated input exceeding 7 kW is installed in a room or internal space or garage, that room or internal space shall be provided with a permanent opening and an air vent with a minimum free area of 5 cm2 for every kW of appliance maximum rated input in excess of 7 kW. Ventilated underfloor space shall be considered outside air, providing the air vents supplying air to the underfloor space remain adequate (i.e. air vents have not been removed, blocked or sealed). Underfloor air vents to gas space heaters shall not be positioned directly under the appliance and shall be in accordance with IBS 5871-11 Bs 5871-21, BS 5871-31 or BS 5871-4, as appropriate."
Getting the installation manuals for the cooker and the extractor seems like a good first step.
How much of that could be down to circumstance or luck though?
Like, say smart meters aren't available in your area, then 'of course' you wouldn't be requested to have one. The chances are they are here and I have been requested to have one many times.
Cheers, T i m
Where did I even mention Smart Meters Robin?
But to get some tariffs I believe you must have a smart meter (as you mentioned smart meters).
My point was nothing to do with smart meters, it was only to do with 'rocking the boat' and where there is no guarantee you will get there significantly cheaper but you could drown.
I'm guessing if such supplier changes all went smoothly the OP wouldn't have posted his message and Watchdog wouldn't have to intervene when supplier switches wrong and the innocent customer ends up trying to get sense from a brick wall?
Cheers, T i m
So I imagine you need to contact the supplier, given the meter installer was likely contracted by them (you would presumably have a contractual relationship with them in the event of the tenants moving out, so I'd hope they would speak to you).
It would help if you can ask the tenants to send you some photos of the current state, otherwise nobody is going to be any the wiser as to what to do.
Your agent is just that, your agent, and it sounds like you need to take things into your own hands, otherwise too many levels of indirection will make it hard to make timely progress.
Theo
In our theatre, where we had a gas cooker, I had to arrange a solenoid in the gas supply so that the cooker couldn't be turned on unless the fan was running.
Are there any regulations that say you must have an extractor above a hob ?. The 'new' kitchen that the previous owners installed (1990) has no extractor hood above the electric cooker but there is a 300mm deep by
600 wide cupboard with a top hinged door then the normal 600mm deep by NNNmm wide units on either side, all sharing the same top level.
This thread is all about installation of a smart meter.
If you sign up to a smart meter tariff, yes you need a smart meter - the clue is in the name.
The OP's tenants decided to do that - maybe a smart meter is right for them. By law, the OP as landlord doesn't get to veto it.
The problem here is really that the response has got garbled through several layers of tenants, energy supplier, installer, gas engineer, letting agency, and so on. I'm sure if the OP was present at the time of the works they could have sorted things out (or at least got to the bottom of the mystery).
It's nothing to do with switching energy supplier. It could have happened when the letting agent sent round a different Gas Safe person to do the safety check from the one they normally use.
Bad customer service can happen from any organisation at any time. It isn't a thing specific to switching.
Theo
Theo's answer covers all the main points I'd have made.
I didn't know that, so looked into it. For the sake of clarity, it seems it's not quite correct - it's only true if the tenants pay the bills directly; if the landlord pays the bills, it's up to him/her as to whether or not a smart meter is installed. It's not clear from the OP who is paying the bills, but I assume it's the tenants.
The point is though, that if they do it and the owner is unaware, then the issue caused by it will also not be known. Changing supplier is one thing, but installation of a new meter is something else and indeed, why would they need to inspect the whole installation if there is an existing supply made by another company. Seems illogical to me. Certainly advise, but I do not think that the small discrepancy in interpretation of a rule is actually a safety issue any more than it was before, and its been like it for some time, quite obviously. What are the grounds for it being unsafe, I wonder?
Brian
When we had gas, we just opened the window, none of this extra ventilation and cooker hood stuff in them days, Besides the houses back then had draughts everywhere, well enough to make sure there was no build up of carbon monoxide.
Brian
The argument isn't about "customer service", that appears to have been fine, ie a smart meter was requested/required, arrangements made, appointments kept, installation completed etc. The argument is about "gas safety", and to be honest the cynic in me is saying that the smart gas meter installler has "failed" the cooker hood and disconnected the supply to drum up work.
The figures banded about indicate that the height difference being argued about is 1cm. Is that from the very lowest part of the cooker hood say the bottom of projecting switch, to the very highest part of the hob, top of control knob? Or from the general level of the filter (if horizontal) to the pan supports or burner heads or the top of a glass hinge down cover?
Don't know what the regs or installation instructions say but I'd argue that the clearance should be from the center top of the pan support for each burner vertically to the "point of contact" with the cooker hood.
If T i m demands cast-iron guarantees about the future of complex things like Brexit and the very simple switching of energy suppliers, one wonders if his 10,000-page pre-nup mentioned a vegan diet...
WHS, except that I did the switching myself.
The only trouble I had was with a switch away from British Gas to SSE, in which BG appeared very reluctant to go through the process. I rang SSE and spoke to a nice Scottish lady. I don't know what she said to BG, but 10 minutes later I got a grovelling call from the latter and the switch went though without hitch from that point. My latest switch was all online and couldn't have been smoother. However, I never start the process from a position of imagining there were hobgoblins everywhere, which probably helps.
OP here, yes, it's the tenants, which I think is pretty much the usual way things are done. I think the rules that apply if the landlord pays and passes the cost on are very stringent so most landlords don't do it.
As some have suggested here we are going to get the original Gas Safe engineer back to see if he still thinks it's safe, or *maybe* it does need some more ventilation. That would be very easy to provide so is a simple cheap solution to keep everyone happy.
Apparently the height of the extract above the hob, although mentioned somewhere, isn't in the actual "this is unsafe" notice so maybe we don't have to do anything about that - here's hoping.
That's still OK, a kitchen with doors or windows to the outside and a volume greater than 10m3 doesn't need anything more. (At least that's my understanding from reading the relevant 'Gas Safe' Technical Bulletin).
I saw it as a thread about the unforeseen consequences of switching energy suppliers and subsequent gas cut off?
Would the op have posted if nothing had 'gone wrong'?
Let me trim the key paragraph for you so it reads as I understand the
*actual* issue:"Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and, as a result <snip> the installers of the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe, specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation."
Clearer?
The issue isn't the smart meter but the unforeseen consequences brought about by the switch.
But what if some auto-switching software selects a smart meter supplier for you? After all, why would you start wasting time going though all the checkboxes manually if the object was the cheapest prices? If getting the best deal was paramount, having to have a smart meter fitted would just be consequential (and how the OP got into this mess, thanks to his tenants).
It's like the tenants have bought an electric car, had a charging point fitted and now it keeps blowing the Company fuse and the OP is roped in to getting the supply upgraded.
Quite, and so their (legitimate) actions have had unforeseen consequences for the landlord. That doesn't distract from the spirit of the thread.
But the spirit of the thread hasn't to me. ;-)
Possibly.
See above.
Yes, It could, but it wasn't that in this case was it. If that also happens (to the OP or anyone) then that would be cause for a different post on a similar level.
True.
No, but if you allow a system to switch you purely on price (which seems to be the ultimate goal amongst many), then you have to do it on that alone ... and accept the consequences (that could include *known* bad customer service).
Anything else implies some level of involvement by the customer and therefore decisions, ideally based on known's (usage, customer service, requirement for a smart meter and the risk of having your gas cut off etc) and so back to the compromise between what you have now (and are staying with because there are no known issues, you might be happy to *pay* for that situation, 'The devil you know') and the complete unknown (by you) of switching.
Let me try to explain the spirit of the potential of what I'm talking about.
Of our total yearly running costs for us, the energy costs could be
5%.If I manage to reduce the energy bills by 10%, and there was no aggro, then that's a saving of 10% of 5% and in the real work that could be a lot of risk (having the gas cut off) for such a tiny reward.
Now, I'm sure it all make sense to those who manage their lives on a spreadsheet, but I don't ... and I'm not sure how *keen* I am to want to take such a risk for such a tiny (and would need to be repeated annually) return.
However, I'm *still* not saying I won't look into it, just that there are far more *important*, interesting and risk free things I can be doing instead. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
And so should my reply to him to you. ;-)
There was a tread on a group somewhere where someone was complaining about people disrespecting animals (wild, and domestic) by setting off fireworks. The thread moved more on the point of the subject (respecting animals) and someone quested what it had to do with fireworks?
The thing is, it wasn't *about* fireworks, it was about *disrespecting animals*, had the fireworks not been happening the animals (that had been there all along) wouldn't have been suffering and so no post would have been made (or certainly not one specifically about animals).
It seems some (intentionally or otherwise) can't sometimes see the wood from the trees (and I'm included in that of course) but some of us seem to be able to cope more often that others. ;-)
Maybe this *is* an observation of those of us who tend to use more 'fuzzy logic', the right brainers, they aren't so interested in the detail but the bigger picture and so whilst might not be the best informed when it comes down to the actual details, at lest have a fair grasp of the spirit of the concept?
That's not saying one is better than the other, that's admitting we are different and have different strengths and weaknesses. We don't all want to be accountants or social workers [1]. ;-)
Cheers, T i m
[1] The whole use of the left / right brain lateralisation thing came from a very good mate (and once my work mentor) who was interested to find out, how after living with his wife for 30 odd years, he didn't really like her (or her him it seemed).The issue was she was an accountant, so very used to a very cold / black and white view of the world and had a plan from very young age how her life should be. Find boy, marry boy, buy house, have children, see children grow up and leave home but she didn't have any plans for after that.
He on the other had was a support guy turned IT trainer and so was
*very* used to dealing with and helping / training *people* and so was very much more tuned into the wants, needs and expectations of *people*.So, the kids leave home, they are left with just each other, he would like love and companionship and she doesn't even consider the idea.
So, to press the point (in vein it seems) he put 'Divorce' on the calendar and she couldn't see why he would be considering doing so. He's unlikely to just leave her because he wouldn't want to hurt her, realising she has no (natural) idea what is wrong (in spit of him explaining it to her on many occasions).
He rates himself as a right brain 2 (out of 5, unusual for a man, they are normally left brain 1 ..) and her a left brain 3, again, unusual for a woman who are normally at least right brained something (maternal instincts etc).
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