Doesn't say anything at all about the state of the wood only something, undefined, about the packaging and wrapping.
So a seller states this bundle of 6 12" dia 6' long logs are firewood and writes "firewood" on the steel wrapping ties holding the bundle together. The requirments have been fullfilled for 5% VAT, namely "held out for sale" as firewood and packaged/wrapped as such.
Because plain packaging doesn't state that the contents are "firewood".
You haven't commented on whether you think 18" long bits of 4" x 4" are "firewood" or not.
What you are missing is "'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you supply it."
I interpret that as meaning that it must be in a suitable state for use as domestic firewood.
Only to the extent that the customer must not intend to resell it.
Whether the customer intends to put it on his fire, or whether he intends to make carvings out of it to decorate his house does not matter (and the seller cannot reasonably be expected to know that anyhow).
That would be difficult, since I am not interpreting it at all.
I have never suggested it might, because I have not been referring to it at all.
>>>>>>>>> Within that, sections 7.1.2 & 7.1.3 are the relevant ones here: >>>>>
For a new seller, or an occasional seller, I'd agree. But if you have been selling regularly for a few years, I'd expect customers to have have insisted on the lower rate, if it is indeed applicable.
My boiler takes 500mm pieces and there are some that take up to 1M lengths, so i'd call it firewood.
I still think it depends on the end use, so if a seller of cord is selling to an end user to cut and split it is still firewood and attracts 5%. But if the seller wants to err on the side of caution it's perfectly reasonable for him to charge 20% and the customer can chose to pay it or go elsewhere.
And will you also accept that you are giving an incorrect and misleading interpretation based on no knowledge of the purchase or use of firewood?
You wouldn't accept you were wrong if you were taken to the evidence and had your nose rubbed in it.
"It has to be in a state consistent with being "firewood"" is what you said, which implies preparation of some sort.
Firewood is wood that has been cut and split to a size suitable for burning in a grate or in a stove. But you are wrong, there's no requirement for wood to be in any "state" there is a requirement for the seller to declare that it is intended for sale as firewood. However, again unlike your suggestions here, there's no need for the seller to use the term "firewood" in advertising. The use of the term "log" is as good as the term "firewood" for that purpose. Merely for the seller to make it clear that the wood is intended for sale as firewood.
The customer must assert that the wood is intended for use as firewood and will not be re-sold if the physical form of the wood leads to doubt about the intention of the customer.
There's no requirement for the wood to be wrapped, packed, cut, split or anything else. It's perfectly possible and reasonable to buy whole logs, trunks, branches etc and then to cut and split them at home and *as long as the customer does not intend to resell and does not intend to use the wood for purposes other than firewood and as long as the seller declares it is firewood* it can be sold at the lower rate.
The term you were searching for and failing to find is "yes, you are correct."
It matters a great deal, if the customer is intending to use the wood for construction, art or a hobby then he must pay standard rate VAT.
Your comments about "suitable state for domestic firewood" can only have come from 7.1.3, which is the part of the notice tha refers to preparation of wood for burning. However it does so in a different context to preceding sections of the notice. Either you are misinterpreting that section or you are making up a requirement that is not there, you choose which.
"it must be in a suitable state for use as domestic firewood."
But I see we're down to the standard Heney "Humpty Dumpty" argument where words mean what you want them to mean, not what you said.
Fair enough. The 500mm is roughly the same as the 18" referred to above.
I'm slightly surprised at boilers taking 1m lengths, but I know the largest of our open fires would (but is unusually large for a domestic fire).
My interpretation of the requirement that the wrapping and packaging be consistent with it's being firewood is that it should be suitable for use without further work necessary.
Provided they are suitable for use as firewood in a domestic setting.
The last firewood I bought was in fact loose with no packaging, and just dumped in a big pile from the trailer.
I didn't actually even look to see what the VAT rate charged was, but it was sold (by my local council) as "firewood" and was cut and split to an appropriate size - a few need additional splitting to fit the (rather small) door of our stove, but they all fit the open fire, so I would expect the rate to have been 5%.
You mean your interpretation is different to mine.
No, because you were only partially correct.
This is the bit you were incorrect in above, and are still incorrect.
The rules do not say anything about the intent of the customer apart from the not reselling it bit.
It is the intent of the seller which matters.
I am not referring to 7.1.3 at all.
I am referring to the following paragraph =============================== 'Held out for sale' as fuel means that you advertise and otherwise describe the product at its point of sale as fuel or firewood, and that this is consistent with the packaging and wrapping in which you supply it. ===============================
I interpret the last part of that as meaning that it has to be in a suitable state for use as firewood.
I can accept that is open to different interpretations, but I believe my interpretation is a perfectly reasonable one.
Which has nothing to do with para 7.1.3.
I have never, ever, used such an argument.
Why you think I might ever do so, never mind suggesting it to be"standard" is beyond me.
The rules do not say that the the wood must be suitable for use without any further action by the purchaser, such as sawing or splitting. It merely states that the wood must be held out only as firewood and packaging, if any, must reflect that fact (and the seller must not believe that the wood is for resale).
Look for local volunteering site that do country conservation(BTCV being such. On many occasions when dropping the odd tree in various places, they often want it cleared. The tree is usually cut to ~20 inch trunk lengths.
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