Butane vs Propane in cold temps

We had a motorhome fridge soot up to the point of non-functioning after a relatively short period on butane.

Yes, it works but it can increase the service requirements of appliances like water heaters and fridges.

Ditto.

Tim

Wax.

NBG in everything from filters to pumps to injectors.

Winterised diesel has an additive that keeps it dissolved

I've always wondered... is there any disadvantage (apart, maybe, from increased cost) of using winter diesel all year round? Does it burn less well/efficiently?

I always use propane in the caravan to avoid problems on cold mornings, but when I needed some new (non-refillable) canisters for use with a garden 'Flame Wand', I bought butane because a) They were a bit cheaper and b) I was going to be using them in the middle of a hot summer - so who cares about low temperature performance?

I wuz wrong. Even in ambient temperatures over 20C, the flame would gradually reduce until after maybe 10-12 minutes use the thing was useless even at maximum setting. I ended up using two canisters & swapping between them at frequent intervals so the freezing cold one could warm up whilst the other was in use.

Fuel Economy falls in winter, but perhaps some of this is due to engines taking longer to come to operating temperature..

Dave

I have not found that. But absolutely driving on wet roads is a lot more draggy than on a dry one

The blending recipe that refineries use, is changed on a weekly basis, based on weather forecasts and existing conditions. You make 25C fuel, consumed on a 25C day. You do not make -40C fuel, and serve it on +30C day. The temperature and the blend, are hand-in-glove items. It is custom blending, for absolutely the best running conditions possible.

The oil companies and this business, are one strange beast from end to end.

Ask yourself this. The word "tariff" and "gasoline" do not appear in the same sentence. Do you know what a riot looks like ? That's what would happen if "tariff" and "gasoline" appear in the same sentence in print :-/ The oil industry is so fragile, so "teetering on the edge", you don't dare touch it for fear of breaking it. We can close old, worn out refineries. Yet, we cannot build new ones. It's become like some law of physics, building a new refinery is like traveling faster than the speed of light. If *two* refineries close for maintenance on the same week now, the price of diesel *doubles*. That is what I mean by teetering. It hangs by a thread. You cannot f*ck with it, you cannot change any blend recipes. You can't even fart near a refinery.

Did I mention your vehicle should be "multi-fuel ready" ? well, it should be. Do what you can, to identify two fuels that your vehicle can burn in an emergency.

Paul

You can watch propane boil here, at 4 minutes into the video or so. This shows the available heat at room temperature, ready and able to boil the liquid.

"Boiling Propane with Doug Reid"

Paul

That tank has to be paid for somehow, normally by rental. It also has to be maintained & pressure tested every 10 years.

Balloonists have lightweight aluminium cylinders.

There are composite cylinders, including refillable ones available in the UK. Safefill is one.

I’m not aware of any aluminium ones aimed at the domestic / motorhome / caravan market in the UK but there are some in Europe. You see them advertised on EBay etc from time to time.

The Le Cube ( French) one I have is composite- make by Butagaz. They have a larger one, also composite, but I don’t recall the name.

In Russia, today, there are 10km queues for petrol and Diesel. Ukraine since the USA stepped back and they developed their own long range missiles that do not come with 'not to be used in Russia' stickers have taken out 40% of the refinery capacity. And a significant proportion of the pipelines too.

Needless to say, the refineries are all built with foreign kit and know-how that Russia is sanctioned from getting...

There is a little bit of science and engineering needed to use LPG. It's one reason why it's not the fuel of choice in many applications.

Like the Chieftain tank ?

Not exactly :-)

You will find some adverts for autos, listing a multi-fuel capability. Just making up a possibility, maybe they can burn "petrol" of some minimum octane value, but maybe they advertise running off ethanol. In other words, the fuels are specifically named, with the possibility of commercial versions of the fuel being already available. And the fuels should be sufficient different (petrol/natural gas/propane) that in the event one of the fuel systems becomes unusable (no petrol deliveries), with a minimum of work the machine can be run off one of the other listed fuels.

It's up to you, to decide whether the listed fuels, offer any real advantage or not. For example, ten minutes from my place, the filling station next to the hardware store offers:

petrol, diesel Tesla charging station (with faster chargers as well as slower ones) Propane refill (if you have a propane tank fitted to your car) On site ten minute oil change (no plastic liter tins, big vat on ceiling) Fish and chips truck (during the day) :-)

And that would represent one of the more flexible places to take a vehicle that was low on "fuel". Other facilities for cars, would not have Propane. Not many filling stations, have BEV chargers fitted.

There might be one Hydrogen in town, but I don't know exactly where that is. And that facility would only deliver Hydrogen, rather than being a station with more than one fuel option. We've had hydrogen test fleets here in the past (not exactly the most practical thing). It's the kind of thing, you would expect the filling facility to "close at any time", because there aren't enough customers to have a cash flow. The test fleets might have been government cars of some sort (driven in town, not on highway or cross-country). I seriously doubt you could make a Hydrogen trip from one side of the country to the other. To go cross-country, with any chance of success, only petrol/diesel stands a chance. Some parts of the country have inter-twined road systems (take a secondary road while looking for fuel). But parts of the country mainly serviced by the TransCanada, there's no guarantee that every possible fuel fetish will be satisfied.

It requires some amount of research, to determine what options are worth more than a moments consideration. It is just some adverts, where the word "multifuel" has been inserted.

Propane is delivered by rail. Rail operates on diesel (only a few engine couples, have a BEV engine in the mix). A total loss of diesel, means you can't expect the propane supply to last. Only urban public transit may run off an overhead catenary or an electrified rail (cities with trams, subways, light rail).

Natural gas usually has good characteristics. (Caverns added as time passes. Cross-country piping has pumps that run off natural gas, to push the natural gas through the pipe.) Still have to find a filling station.

The idea is, if you can see that a particular fuel type is "fraught" with supply issues, you may want your vehicle to use some second fuel type so you can still get around.

When the price of diesel doubled, some of the people with work trucks, they were pissed it was costing $1000 to fill the work truck with fuel. That's the kind of number it takes, to get peoples attention.

Paul

I had a diesel fuel tank heater in the G-Wagon.

And electric…

Tim

In an emergency situation, fish and chips will allow significant effort and mileage on a pushbike before being used up.

More usually, fish and chips require significant effort and mileage on a pushbike before being used up...

Thomas Prufer

I remember in the days before winterised diesel a popular suggestion doing the rounds was to put a gallon of petrol in the tank then fill the tank with diesel, and that was supposed to prevent waxing.

I didn't know anyone using diesel in those days so I don't know if it worked or not.