Nowadays, it seems, one must apply to "building control" for almost everything. How is the avaerage DIY-er supposed to know all this?
For instance, if I remove a 1st. floor P&L ceiling, board it, insulate it to the proper standard, but don't tell the BCs, I've done something "naughty". If I do tell 'em, then I get charged a fat fee. The same goes for plastering an outside wall (or applying dry lining, or other insulation). Grr!
If I "just do it", what sanctions might be applied to me? Is it still the case that if my works are not detected for some time (how long?, then nothing can be done to me?
I expect the vast majority are blissfully ignorant!
the proper standard,
Which one does that violate?
(or is it the installing insulation bit that comes under one of the approved document L bits)?
Something else to ignore then ;-)
(I am sympathetic to building regs where they are there to ensure traditional concepts of safety, protection during fire, structural integrity etc, Where they are just in place to pander to political attempts at social engineering, I am less so!)
You could be required to undo and put right faulty work. Technically speaking one could be fined as well. Much depends on the scale and type of infringement. Not notifying a replacement window is in a different league from carrying out botched alternations to rented accommodation that will put lives at risk.
I believe that is the case. I think the time-scale for enforcement is relatively short - no more than 4 years, possibly less.
Note that where your error is just procedural (i.e. the quality of the work is fine, but you neglected / were unaware of the need to inform building control, the possibility of any action being taken seems vanishingly small.
IIUC the times when action is taken, its usually after a series of warnings to correct dangerous or inappropriate work have been ignored and the BC dept is faced with little alternative but to pursue legal action to achieve compliance. Given this takes time, resources and more importantly, significant lumps of their budget, it seems unlikely this happens often.
Perhaps one of our regular BCO posters would like to comment?
I think until you've had your BCO involved with a project, there's a tendency to see them as the "enemy". They're not. Mine has really done his best to help, has a lot of experience and is willing to suggest pragmatic solutions.
AFAIK general building repairs are not a BC issue on domestic work.
All the info you need on Building Regulations here:
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there's a lot of it, I'd describe it as very readable. Though I think they could be usefully supplemented by presenting the same information in relation to common projects - rather than the individual having to draw from several sections.
Like making sure people use fire resistant materials when they replace ceilings and insulate walls as above? You just made a good argument in favor of the rules you say you don't want.
I have the head of building control as my neighbor, he is not an enemy, he even offered to draw up the plans for an extension I was thinking about.
His opinion on the Part X laws are the same as most DIY people, who cares. I think it was summed up quite well.. "we aren't looking for infringements".
They have far more interesting problems, like extensions built out of blocks without footing and no mortar!
John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:
6 months and 2 years I think. IIRC (big if) the 6 months may be the period
*they* have to catch you in order to bust you up to the magistrate for failure to notify. That's the bit that attracts a fine and/or gaol time (5k/6 months max again IIRC). It wouldn't happen to a DIYer in any normal circumstances, though the fine has been levied against rough tradesmen, usually for claiming to be able to self certify, then bodging it dangerously, repeatedly.
Suspect the 2 years may be the period that LABC can enforce correcting the work, unless the work is actually dangerous, in which case there's no time limitation, so don't go building the leaning tower of Pisa and trying to hide it for two years ;->
Hopefully an informed person will be along shortly to confirm or correct this.
Cheers
Tim
PS - thing to watch is when you sell the house. Law Society forms TA11/TA12 ask about any electrical work, heating and windows/doors related work and if certs are available. Indemnity insurance for 40-100 quid is available to cover this, but it may scare the buyers.
snipped-for-privacy@gglz.com coughed up some electrons that declared:
Haven't met mine yet, but talking to him he sounds quite pragmatic and helpful. I'm going to see him next month or so, with some floor plans (before and after) and get his comments before I fill out the BNA. But as he's involved he might as well deal with all the notifables in one go.
Unless he says he doesn't want to know of course... I am going to be quite upfront about one problem: I'll be re-doing the roof insulation, better than currently. But I doubt if I can meet modern standards without losing too much headroom. I'm hoping he'll be understanding. If not, it'll just "not be done".
dennis@home coughed up some electrons that declared:
But is he making it any worse than before (there's an argument against that) or is he just failing to bring it up to modern standards (laudable if you can, but not always practical and if fixing is leaves it no worse than not touching it, I personally don't have a problem with that. The law might, but I'm making a moral case, not a legal one.
John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:
Yep. Half of the people I talk to think you can't do gas or electrical work at all and fuss about their FENSA certs. OTOH I was speaking to someone who didn't know it might be a good idea to talk to LABC about having a chimney part removed and braced up on supports. I did urge them in the general direction of the BCO.
This is where it's all gone wrong. Faffing about with bl**dy windows and thermal/ventilation[1]/acoustic/PartM(domestic) bo**cks and loosing sight of what LABC is supposed to be about.
Cheers
Tim
I don't mean ventilation regarding gas burning appliances of course.
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 08:48:55 +0100 someone who may be "dennis@home" wrote this:-
Building control people are generally fine if confined to their areas of expertise. Drains, bricks and that sort of thing.
Things go wrong when they are asked to get involved with things like hot water cylinders, electricity and the like, about which they tend to know little.
Can't see that there is any fire retardant implications of plastering an outside wall, can you?
As I said, where regulations concern matters such as performance of a structure during fire, there is obvious benefit to having them - especially when they concern non intuitive aspects of a build (like requiring additional protection over a built in garage for example).
Where they stipulate that you need approval to replace a window or add an electrical circuit, even when you have the required technical skills they seem pointless in the first case and counter productive in the second.
When chatting with my BCO a few months back at the final inspection of my loft conversion, it was fairly clear what he thought of Part P - the words were fine, but the gestures and body language very clearly said "please don't tell me about any electrical stuff".
Seems logical - but the major flaw in that is that the regulatory burden has intruded into so many areas now that are not things one might even expect to be controlled.
How do you know what a DIY person might do? That is what the rules are for to make sure someone doesn't do something silly. You can bend the rules if you know what you are doing and the BCO agrees BTW.
As I said any work could change the fire characteristics in a bad way. Just look at the number of idiots that dab fixed polystyrene tiles and then gloss painted them!
You said it, if it wasn't what you meant to say its not my fault.
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:30:56 +0100, a particular chimpanzee, John Rumm randomly hit the keyboard and produced:
the proper standard,
Yes, "replacement of a Thermal Element".
After a hot, sweaty day dealing with dangerous buildings, unauthorised blocks of flats, and so-called 'Fire Engineers' who think they can prove that a seven-storey office block doesn't need two-door protection to their stairs..?
Ah ok. So presumably if he plasterboarded under an existing ceiling without removing it first and left it uninsulated all would be fine?
Well I am sure you would be keen to skip over those minor details and get to the really dangerous stuff like missing FENSA certificates, and sockets installed 20mm too low on a wall ;-)
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:15:46 +0100, a particular chimpanzee, Tim S randomly hit the keyboard and produced:
Well, until he does...
The LA can bring an action in the Magistrates' Court for a fine within
6 months of the date of the offence, except for breaches of the Energy Efficiency requirements, where the time limit is longer (can't remember how long & ICBA to look it up).
The LA can serve a notice (a 'Section 36') requiring the owner to rectify a contravention up to 12 months after its occurrence (I think this has also been extended for Energy Efficiency requirements- see above).
Action can be taken on existing buildings containing flats of three or more storeys to ensure there are adequate fire precautions, and there are the dangerous buildings sections if you really c*ck it up (like the landlord who decided that he could get a couple of extra flats in his house by digging down 2m in one go).
In practice, as someone else has pointed out, getting the Council's solicitors to do anything within the time allowed is so tortuous and time-consuming that my LA only takes any formal action against the most serious and/or serial transgressors. The main sanction for everyone else is the withholding of a Completion Certificate.
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