Well, sure they're going to be an energy leak as compared to a R11+ wall, but there's no sense in not doing something to improve their efficiency. A small improvement in a large loss is often much more cost-effective than a large improvement in a small loss. With increasing energy costs this is only going to be more significant in the future.
These will be new installations so they'll go into standard modern frames. The existing windows were retrofit into frames ditching the window weights a number of years ago when Dad remodeled the house after my grandmother passed away.
Windows, by their nature, are aesthetic. If it was about efficiency you wouldn't have any at all. The dual pane windows are not as aesthetically pleasing, IMO. At a minimum, check out insulated glass. I will make sure all the windows in my house are insulated glass, even the ones that are currently gas-filled dual glazed.
That's one of the bigger drawbacks we found when considering replacing our 100-year-old windows -- we definitely don't want windows that look like someone put strips white electrical tape on them, which is what the between-the-pane vinyl pseudo-mullions suggest. They're about as attractive as wood-grained contact paper on a station wagon.
The mullions in the dual glazed are just like what are found in some Andersen & Pella, unless the Andersen & Pella have the snap in grid (Yuk). As you can see, the design is also done with wood windows.
Most people find when purchasing a century home, they end up being a money pit. The ordinary average Joe doesn't earn the income it takes to properly restore a century home with properly designed windows/copper gutters/slate roof etc etc. So they end up looking for alternatives which include doing nothing at all. Or, having an old house slapped together. I think you're finding this out already, by looking at vinyl windows for a century home.
I think you're now tilting at windmills, too, Coop...looking to see the alternatives is what you've been promoting. So when he did and didn't like what he saw, that's fair.
I agree that for cost-saving many shortcuts have been made by manufacturers--some of these are for energy conservation, some for ease of cleaning/use for the home, some simply for the convenience of the installer, others simply to cut cost.
Can't argue that if one is planning on restoring a classic, one had best have deep pockets. But, there's nothing new about that, and there's nothing wrong about expressing one's opinion that these newer features are not one's "cup of tea"...
It's taken about $40k to re-roof and repair/restore the for heavens, sake, and that's with all the work done by myself and one hired hand (who was a homeless ex-aircraft mechanic who ended up in town after being laid off at Boeing/Wichita) that was an excellent hand but not expensive at all as compared to "professional" labor...and that's a for heaven's sake, and it wasn't really in all that bad of shape (except Dad had decided 20 years ago he wasn't going to spend the money on it as we hadn't made a decsion to return and he knew it would outlast him w/o doing anything).
Roof -- 60 sq 1/2" cedar shakes @ $95/sq (got a deal there) --> ~$6k Replacement Siding -- 2000 l-ft 3-1/4" T&G fir (custom) --> ~$3k Paint (40 gal primer, 80 gal finish) --> ~$8k Miscellaneous lumber, etc. (swag) --> ~$2k Labor --> ~20k
That doesn't count any of the additional tools, safety equipment, the JLG 40-ft boom lift I found on eBay for $5k (best thing since sliced bread around the farmstead for repair/maintenance), 22 sections of scaffolding to reach 2-high one side eave-high, etc.
And I absolutely agree. IMHO vinyl doesn't belong on a restoration project like a century home. My understanding is a home can not be listed as historic with modern building materials such as vinyl. But, now we're talking a whole different ballgame than what this thread started out as.
The last project I actually did physical work on, was a project out of State. Down in WV. It was a $25m home with 30k sq. ft. Husband & wife were the only ones that lived in the house, but talk about deep pockets!
Correct on both counts...when we restored the old railroad hotel here in town, the state historic preservation committee required that the addition be modified from the original in trim details, etc., so it couldn't possibly be mistaken as part of the original (as if modern construction techniques could have been confused w/ ca
1900!) The result is the addition looks tacky as hell in comparison...one of the most egregious visual impact problems is they wouldn't let us match the original windows. :(
Damn, that reaches the ankles!!! Don't think we'll go that far on the house! :)
On 12/18/2004 2:10 PM US(ET), Cooper took fingers to keys, and typed the following:
Up here in the NE, there are many old villages that are over 250 years old. The local fathers have set aside certain portions of the town as "Historic Zones". You cannot do anything to the old houses in these zones without approval. No vinyl siding, vinyl windows, etc. Even the exterior paint colors are regulated (one homeowner rebelled and painted his historic victorian various shades of purple. I thought it looked kinda nice, sorta like it belonged in Disneyland. He relented after a while). No modern amenities can be visible on the outside, including A/C, antennas, etc. Even christmas lights must be a single white candle type in each window. Any new construction within the zone must be in a style appropriate for the historic period, an that included a new Post Office built within the zone.
Yes, we ruled them out on wood and fiberglass, too.
We never wanted vinyl, but almost every window company we requested bids from insisted that vinyl windows were just as good as wood these days, so we let a couple of them bring samples. Even the most expensive vinyl windows just looked cheap, and I'd hate to think what they'd look like 50 years from now.
(I really don't quite understand this -- isn't anyone in the window business on commission? When a customer calls up asking about wood windows on a hundred-year-old restoration, why on earth do they try to sell vinyl instead?)
On 12/19/2004 9:31 PM US(ET), Joshua Putnam took fingers to keys, and typed the following:
Because they have sell modern windows and don't sell restoration millwork, which is want you want. Google on - restoration millwork - and find your wood windows.
Ok, my cedar siding has a sloid body stain on it (and there is plenty of painted cedar) so it's all the same color too. Only the raised grain is there to see. I put it up rough-side-out, so the grain is more pronounced, though it is all the same color. I've since seen some damned nice vinyl, with very nice corner-boards too. I was impressed, if not just a little depressed after spending a *fortune* on cedar that I'll have to stain every couple of years.
Wood Windows? Not a chance! Mine are metal clad wood, but I'd go for good vinyl clad windows any day.
Of course it fades and then you paint it. What do you do when vinyl fades?
How long have vinyl windows been installed in homes? I should hope you aren't taking that many out already, since they are a relatively new product as compared to wood or metal.
You are now showing that your range of experiences is not as broad as you claim. You've only ever seen white windows?!
I have said many useful things, among which are that vinyl windows are not available with true divided lites. You sound almost like a religious zealot in favor of vinyl windows in that you refuse to acknowledge their drawbacks. This is not surprising from someone who made a living installing them.
We also ended up deciding not to get wood, once we finally got people to stop pushing vinyl. (These weren't just low-end companies, either, they were contractors whose ads touted high-end wood windows and restoration work, yet they still tried to sell us vinyl.)
In the end we found a better match for the original millwork, with very low maintenance and a paintable surface, and mullions inside and out, going with fiberglass.
Luckily we're in a house where we're free to use modern materials. If the historic preservationists wanted the house done up with all original materials, they could have paid for it themselves, but they didn't, it's ours and we're free to upgrade where we want
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.