Wiring Question

[rangerssuck]

I'm doing some remodel work in my kitchen and will be adding some new circuits and replacing some old. A few months from now, I'm going to do some extensive electrical work (new service entrance and panel). I'm not exactly sure where the new panel will end up - could be at either end of a wall, depending on a number of factors that I simply can't deal with today, and the sheetrock guy is coming later this week, so the kitchen wiring has to be done...

So, here's my question: Is it a really horrible idea to do the kitchen wiring, drop the wires down to the basement, each circuit into it's own 4" square box, and then run romex from each of those boxes to the panel? That would give me the flexibility to get the kitchen done this week and the basement done in a few months.

So, good, bad, ugly or "don't do it" ?

Thanks

[gfretwell]

Not a bad idea at all. Just label everything well so you don't forget where things go

[aemeijers]

I'd make the runs long enough to get to either possible panel location, and just coil the excess up in the basement ceiling when you do the connections to the current panel. Romex is pretty cheap when you buy the big rolls. By the time you buy and fit the boxes, it will get awful confusing down there. Don't forget to alternate the circuits on the new kitchen outlet runs, and have dedicated runs for fridge, etc. Better to have too many outlets than too few- now is the cheap time to do it. If you end up with several 10-20 foot pieces of extra romex when you change out the service, they are always handy to have for adding ceiling cans, or basement and garage outlets.

-- aem sends...

[Mike Paulsen]

The junction boxes in the basement would have to remain accessible, so you'd want to make sure you would be OK with blank cover plates or an access panel where you're thinking of putting them.

How far is it from where the cables enter the basement to the proposed panel locations? Would it be feasible to just leave enough cable to make the longer run and accept the additional waste if you go with the other location?

[rangerssuck]

This basement is, and will always be, unfinished, so accessibility is not an issue. The boxes can just go up on a joist and stay there forever. The way the cable would run to the alternate location could add thirty or more feet to each run. I think I'll probably go with the junction boxes. They're pretty cheap (I may actually have enough on hand without buying any), and it will get the job done neatly.

[Metspitzer]

That is what I would do. I don't think I would want extra lengths of romex that will be hot until the other work. Having each outlet on a separate circuit is good for the kitchen.

You should also consider if you do use boxes, they will have to be accessible when the basement work is done.

Don't forget, kitchen outlets have to be GFCI.

[stan]

Another quick suggestion ........... re kitchen outlets.

1) GFIs may be needed for certain outlets, near damp location. But not for the fridge or any other appliance that has a motor, e.g. dishwasher! GFIs may trip on motor start/unbalance.

2) The capacity of a single duplex outlet can be doubled by wiring it 'Edison outlet style'. Simply this means that one half of the outlet is fed with say the black live and the other half with the 'other leg' red live wire, white is the neutral, common to both. At this stage you could drop down #12 AWG Red/Black/White plus ground for the short distance from a few selected outlets and then later decide if you want to use Edison style wiring or not. If not then ignore the red wire and or wire the red and black together! The added capacity can be useful if, for example, you may have two reasonably 'heavy' appliances on the same outlet; e.g. a 100+ watt m.wave and say a toaster-oven/electric fry-pan. Edison outlets use double pole breakers, so you could plan for that later during electric service replacement.

Just a couple of ideas

[stan]

The way I read the OP they will just be dead ends. And won't be 'hot' until later hooked up the new panel/service. Or will be hooked up temporarily to provided some limited outlets until other work is completed.

[rangerssuck]

I like that idea, and yes, you would have to use double pole breakers, as you can't have two separately protected circuits in the same box.

[Metspitzer]

Not if they are GFCI.

[Metspitzer]

GFCIs will not work with a split neutral.

[RBM]

You usually install a new service at or near the existing one, as all the existing cables are going to have to be rerouted into the new equipment, or a feeder will have to go from the new equipment to feed the existing equipment if it will remain as a sub panel. For neatness and simplicity, I would leave long tails and no junctions, especially if you have any heavy loads like electric ranges or cooktops. FYI, Nec requires a minimum of 2-20 amp circuits for kitchen outlets. All counter top outlets must be GFCI protected. Every counter space 12" or larger requires an outlet. At any point along a counter space, you must be within two feet of an outlet

[stan]

e quoted text -

Agree double pole brakers and if necessary may need to be GFCI type breakers; expensive?

[stan]

quoted text -

That's correct AFIK. Can't have two separate hots in one box. GFCI outlets compares the current in the neutral and live wires; for anything plugged into the GFCI itself or any outlets wired downstream of it. If the current is different the GFCI trips (For safety because the difference might be leakage through a human). So you can't use a GFCI for an Edison circuit with it's common neutral. Plugging into either 'half' of an Edison outlet would immediately be an unbalance and then 'click'.

[Chip C]

I'd pick C and D. Put a new subpanel in the basement just under the kitchen, wire all the new work to it, and run a single big cable back to the old main panel, with enough slack in it to re-route to wherever the new main panel will be. One run of heavy-gauge cable will be less work than making all those runs in romex, plus you can make the new main panel a little smaller than it would need to be otherwise.

With your range wired to the new subpanel, you may find that you can use the routing that its cable used back to the old panel to route your new subpanel feed. Might save a bit of drilling.

Chip C Toronto

[bud--]

You don't need a separate box for each circuit. Multiple circuits could go through the same box as long as there are not too many wires in the box.

[Doug Miller]

Under the CEC, yes. Under the [US] NEC, no.

[Wayne Whitney]

120V GFCI will not work with a split neutral downstream of the GFCI. So if you want to use "Edison circuits" for the kitchen counter top receptacles, you can either (a) use separate GFCI receptacles at each location, so nothing is wired downstream of the GFCI or (b) use a 240V/120V double pole GFCI breaker.

Cheers, Wayne

[Wayne Whitney]

This may have been true with the first generation GFCIs from the

1980s. But for a modern GFCI, if a motor trips it, it is because the motor has a ground fault, and the motor should be fixed or replaced.

Cheers, Wayne

[gfretwell]

The trick, if you want a multiwire circuit feeding the kitchen is to put in a 4" box with 2 GFCI receptacles (one on each side of the MW) then run 12/2/2 to the split receptacles down stream.

I figured out that in my kitchen it was easier to just use 4" boxes at each counter top location and pull 2 separate circuits. You never seem to have enough places to plug things in anyway.