What's with GE?

[Duane Bozarth]

MLD wrote: .....

The specs for consumer goods aren't necessarily any "looser" and the useage of 6-sigma may well be as rigorous as in your example. It is simply the target that is different. Try building that same jet engine for 2/3 the price or consider how your design parameters would have to change if the target aircraft were a corporate jet, say, instead of military--the cost pressure of keeping that Citation competitive in the marketplace would undoubtedly have a significant effect on the eventual performance specifications. It's that environment that is, as you now realize :), more nearly comparable to the consumer market.

None of the above intended as rant/criticism/whatever, just amplifying on how the environment changes the requirements w/ the specs following--

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

I wish that Whirlpool would get it for I don't like the ideal of the only choices being the over sea's companys or Whirlpool when choosing appliances.

TURTLE

[Duane Bozarth]

....

But, in fact, those latter considerations "compromised" design specs for the reasons you give and including the fact that the market would not support the cost structure if they weren't. That the safety side isn't significantly different is only one portion of the equation, albeit it is an important one.

I gathered as much... :) Cincinnati?

OBTW, did I mention I had close family ties w/ Cessna? :)

However, the consumer appliance division of GE in its current incarnation has gone the broad-market, less expensive route at the apparent loss of reliability and longevity. That said, I'm sure they're very precisely engineered and the production facilities are ISO-certified. It's just too bad the American consumer is so initial-purchase-price sensitive that there's no significant market for better goods... :(

[RichK]

"TURTLE" wrote

complete

Yes, it's bad enough already. If the only stores in your area are Wall Mart and Home Depot, it's already close to impossible to find an American made appliance. They simply do not carry them.

If Whirlpool goes East, there will be no choices anywhere.

Rich

[Duane Bozarth]

MLD wrote: ....

Yeah, I knew after I sent it wouldn't be likely to be Cincy...

Don't know status of production...last I knew of was T-37 and A-37 and variants...

My connections are now getting rather dated, too. I don't want to consider what that says about ... :)

[MLD]

OK--With respect to all the posts in response to my six sigma comment--I agree with them all!! I obviously was blinded, biased, and my thoughts were colored by my own work experience with a product that doesn't have loose specs, has quality, life and safety built into it. It's not a refrigerator, washer or microwave oven where if a part fails you simply replace, repair, make thicker or heaver. I dealt with jet engines--here is a product that must operate at inlet temperatures from minus (-) 65F to 130F. Run at sea level to 60,000 Ft. at flight speeds of Mach 0 to 2.0 while the pilot is free to move the throttle over its operating range as often and as rapidly as he wants. Where the gas temperature in the turbine area is actually hotter than the melting point of the blading. The engine has shown that it is capable of operating over its speed range for 20,000-30,000 hours or so without requiring a shutdown or experiencing a failure---that's approx 2 to

3 yrs.--- try that on your car. When a component failure does occur, both the Military/FAA requires an investigation as to the cause and then corrective action to fix it. Granted the engine that I'm familiar with (installed in the F/A 18) is a bit pricey--about 1.5 million dollars. This is the six sigma environment that I was thinking about--I concede to the homeware products and the comments that followed. MLD

[MLD]

Comments accepted as intended--You're right, the cost is certainly a direct result of the application, however, I'd like to add the following: With respect to Biz Jets--Just about all the engines used in corporate aircraft are derivatives of a design used in a Military application; for example, the Lear Jet, Daussalt Falcon engines used derivatives of the GE J85 engine which is used in the T38 Trainer, F5 Freedom Fighter (along with a number of others). The GE CF34 used in several Military aircraft e.g. A10(warhog) is on the Bombardier Challenger. The GE T700 is used in many Military helicopters as well as many civilian applications. The design requirements or Specs of these engines are not compromised in any way just because they are on the commercial side of the fence. In fact, satisfying the FAA is, in many cases, a much more difficult task than the Military. They (engines) are less costly since they don't have to perform as aggressively as their Military counterpart (simpler control systems, reduced complexity etc.) but not at the expense of flight safety or endurance. For those that are down on GE and don't want to deal with their products----cut down on your flying or be more selective with respect to the aircraft you book on--GE engines are installed on approx 70% of the world's commercial aircraft. BTW, did I mention that I worked for GE? MLD MLD

[Edwin Pawlowski]

GE is capable of making a good product, (although the engines are not as good as the one Pratt makes here in CT) but they chose a different market for consumer goods. Not everyone wants or can afford the top of the line. GE chose to make a higher volume lower priced unit to target a different audience than the higher priced brands. It falls on the consumer to educate themselves and make decisions based on what they learn.

[MLD]

Lynn, Ma--small aircraft engines, mostly on the F04 (F/A-18) With respect to Cessna--spent about a week there quite some time ago, most of the time on the runway At that time they produced a very small Military aircraft--which for the life of me I can't recall the exact name. Production line shut down, they gave me a crew, a portable test stand, a pilot,an aircraft, a two channel recorder and then walked away. I'm sure they were looking out the windows but they just left me to sink or swim. Fortunately, I didn't sink. MLD

[MLD]

Pratt was the major supplier of commercial and Military engines--there must be a reason why they lost so much of both markets (I believe GE now has approx 70% commercial, 90% Military). What about the foreign market too? Could it be because they just couldn't keep up and compete? I recall they had a lot of stall problems along with keeping compressor discs from breaking up--do you remember sitting in a commercial aircraft (I do)--per FAA requirements--having to run the engines up to full power and hold for a bit, back to Idle and then to full power--before being allowed to take off. A quick test to make sure the discs wouldn't fail on Take-Off. Used to wonder how many passengers knew what was going on. MLD