What is the code for installing lights and outlets? Can they be on the same breaker? My house has both on the same breaker, but a friend said this is no longer acceptable and on new construction outlets must use #12 and lights #14 with no more than six outlets or lights on a breaker? The electrician told me he can put up to 15 things on a line and mix and match as long as it's #20 wire. Should I find another friend or another electrician?
Bob
In article , "rck" wrote: [friend says one thing, electrician says another]
Neither.
Go to a ball game and have a beer with your friend, and get electrical advice from the electrician.
Not the other way around.
You have to understand that in this rural part of Tennessee we have no permits and no inspections and some pretty bad contractors. An electrician may tell me something that is not contrary to code here but wouldn't be accepted practice in a civilized area. Thought it best to check here first with people who do know what they are talking about. I don't have a high confidence level in anyone I might hire here. Previous hired work has been a disaster. As for the friends, they just built a new house in a civilized area, did a lot of the work themselves and it passed inspection with no problems.
Bob
appliance circuits? convince outlets? High Intensity Discharge lighting?
Residential is usually mix and match some contractors use 12 wire for all the branch circuits that are 120v. It saves the men time and the men do not have to think about which wire to use where. Some use a mixture of 12 and 14 because the 14 is cheaper. I use 180 watts per outlet unless they are for equipment or dedicated for something.
180 times 8 outlets is 1440 watt the max for a 15 amp circuit. I also make sure every bedroom is fed by 2 circuits. That way you can blow a circuit and not be in the dark. Appliance circuits you must have 2 free in a kitchen then you have to add more circuits for the microwave, disposal and refrigerator.Last new home builder I looked at (KB Homes). They had written in Spanish the instruction for the plumbers and the electricians on the concrete at the front door. I walked directly to the car and asked the realtor to take me back to my vehicle. I am sure that Spanish speaking people are diligent. It just gave me the willies.
You can find some info here:
Recepts can be on either 15 Amp or 20 Amp circuits (and it depends...)
Lighting can also be on either.
The number of fixtures or recepts is not specifically limited by code, although some cities may have over-riding rules. Here is where knowledge and experience come to play.
Jim
You can mix and match lights and outlets on the same circuit, but I don't like to do it -- if I blow a breaker by plugging in one-too-many popcorn poppers, I don't want the lights going out. Some cities may not let you put lights on a branch circuit, but that doesn't apply to you.
There is a limit to how many lights you can put on a circuit, but no limit to the number of convenience outlets.
If you use #12 wire, you can use 20A breakers and you can put more stuff on the circuit. #14 wire is cheaper and easier to work with, but it limits you to 15A. I usually put outlets on #12 wire and 20A breakers, and lights on #14 wire and 15A breakers. If you're gonna buy just one roll of wire, get the #12.
The outlets in the bathroom and near the kitchen sink (and a few other places) need to be protected by a ground fault interupter. The cheapest and most convenient way to do this is to install a GFCI receptacle. They are bigger than normal outlet devices, so make sure you use deep enough electrical boxes so you can shove them (and the wires) into the box.
-Bob
thinking 20 amps here.
Bob
I added on a 200 sq ft room with a lav in one corner. The electrician will do the hookup but said I'd save money if I did the work snaking the wires through the existing walls. The new part is open and easy to wire. I put three cables in place into the service panel but not connected, one #12, one #14, and a 10/3 for the water heater. In the midst of this, my friends stopped by and told me it didn't meet the code. I just checked with their city and what they told me is the code for them but not for me. So they are correct for where they live but also my electrician is correct for what he is going to do here. Thank you for your assistance, just wanted to be sure. Once the drywall is on, changes won't be so easy.
Bob
Don't come looking for a house in Florida then...
Jeff
So one thing caught my eye, that being the use of 20 gauge wire (#20 you wrote) for various circuits.
I'm not an electrician, but i've pretty sure you need minimum #14 for a 15 amp circuit, and #12 for a 20amp circuit.
I would be wary of the contractor who said that #20 could be used.... get a second *reliable* quote for the wire size. now...
Are you sure he didn't say to use a 20amp circuit and you can run lights and outlets?
BTW, outlets on a 20amp circuit are slightly different than outlets. see:
if there really are no local codes... just wire by the NEC.
Typo, see previous post. #12, not #20.
Or Arizona. Tennessee will soon be the same.
Bob
Your friend should out of the electrical advice business. Electrical wire is sized according to the breaker size. And yes, you can have outlets and lights on the same circuit. Listen to your electrician.
"Bruce" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...
There's some pretty bad "professionals" in these here hills. A wise person around here considers all the advice he can get and then makes the best decision. That's why I inquired on the NG. Yes, I understand the criteria for wire size, or inversely, breaker size. Spent 30 years in industrial electronics, but I'm not familiar with the various local codes for each city and town regarding house wiring. Last professional licensed contractor here was the plumber. He came in finding fault with everything that had been done in the past by someone else. Duh, why did he think I called him? Because I realized something wasn't right. No need for him to carry on like that. He laughed about how the 2 inch hole for the washer drain was too close to the wall and what a stupid the previous plumber must have been. So then he drilled another two inch hole, this one 4 inches out from the wall and then he himself couldn't put the pipe through it. So he put the new pipe through the old hole which he had initially said wasn't right and then left me with a new open 2 inch hole in the floor. Then he forgot to hook up the drain to the sink and water went all over the floor. Then came the concrete people who didn't understand the meaning of square or level. And then the roofing contractor who didn't know how the seams fit together. That's when I decided I'd do most of the rest of the work myself. Now you know why I'm second guessing the electrician. There are no professionals here. It's Bubba the plumber, Bubba the roofing contractor, Bubba the concrete man.
Bob
As others noted, lights and receptacles can be on same breaker. But, for example, all bedrooms now must be on arc fault type GFCIs. Better to put lights on a separate circuit so that a tripped AGFI does not also leave one stumbling in the dark.
As noted, number of boxes per circuit is more often a personal preference of the electrician and his inspector. There are some boxes that must be unique. For example, kitchen counter top boxes must be on their own circuit and should not be on same circuit shared by other receptacles such as outside receptacle. Refrigerator should be on its own circuit and not on a GFCI - since a power loss to refrigerator, later restored, could result in food poisoning.
Washer and dryer should be on their own circuit - forgot if that is a code requirement or wanted by the inspectors.
Wires must not be bent any tighten than a radius five times wire diameter. A number for maximum number of wires in a box is often printed inside the box. All incoming services (AC electric, phone, and cable) must enter building as same location so that all can connect, less than 20 feet, to a single point ground. In reality, you want these connections less than ten feet.
volts500 wrote a nice summary of build> There's some pretty bad "professionals" in these here hills. A
Thanks for the info. This NG is the best source of accurate information.
Bob
Just remember that the trades are not professionals by any definition, other than perhaps theirs. Most state legislatures define the "learned professions" and they don't include plumbers, electricians, and concrete types. These are trades in which you may find some very skilled workers, but more often many unskilled pretenders.
RB
rck wrote:
Yes, but all of these companies were listed as "Licensed, Bonded, Insured" and I mistakenly thought it meant something. In retrospect, I think it meant licensed to steal.
Bob
contractor,
Or California.
Mary
You've provided additional information which clarifies things. The NEC has some restrictions on circuits that can not have lighting. These are kitchen counter receptacles, and bathroom receptacles where that circuit serves multiple bathrooms. There can also be no lighting if you have a fastened in place item on a circuit that draws 50% or more of the rating of the circuit.
The code requires that the bathroom receptacles have a 20A circuit, and that circuit can't serve anything other than bathrooms. If it serves ONLY that bathroom, it can do the lights, fans, and receptacles in that one bathroom. What is the intended purpose of the rest of the room? If its a bedroom, then all 15A and 20A 120V circuits in that bedroom must be AFCI protected. If you have an eating area, then you need the dedicated 20A counter receptacles.
Personally, I like to keep lights and receptacles separate. Lighting only can easily get by with #14 wire, and you'll like that if you have 3-way or
4-way switch circuits. Receptacles are best with #12 wire. In US residential, there is no limit to the number of receptacles on a circuit.I think you need at least 1 more 12-2 cable for the bathroom. If your local codes are not the same as the NEC, then I doubt if anyone in this newsgroup can help you.
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