Long ago I used to see 117V. Never figured out where that came from.
For calculations the NEC says to use 120 and 240V.
For may years the NEC has required (for new wiring) 20A for kitchen countertop (+ some other), laundry, bathroom.
In the UK "ring" circuits at 32A, 230V are common. For loads where we use 120V the current can be half, with smaller wire. For protection from higher source current and smaller wire, plugs for ring circuits have a fuse.
That would be eminently reasonable.
However
210.21-B-1 A single receptacle on a branch circuit shall be rated not less than the branch circuit.- A receptacle on a 15A branch circuit must be rated at least 15A. (20A is at least 15A.)
210.19-A-2 conductors of branch circuits supplying more that one receptacle ... shall have an ampacity of not less than the rating of the branch circuit.- If there are more than 2 receptacles rated 20A the branch circuit conductors must be rated 20A That is effectively #12 for 20A receptacle. This does NOT apply for a single receptacle. Table 210.21-B-2 applies to 2 or more receptacles Table 210.21-B-3 applies to 2 or more receptacles Far as I have seen you can put a 50A SINGLE receptacle on a 15A circuit. I believe there was a code change proposal on this that the panel in its infinite wisdom rejected.
240.4-D is irrelevant. (For a 15A receptacle the wire is 14ga.)
What I said is that a 15A receptacle, (with 2 or more) can only have a
12A load connected even if the load is non-continuous. This is contrary to the general rule that would allow a 15A non-continuous load.What I said is the effect of 210.21-B-2 There was a code change proposal that would allow non-continuous loads at 100% of the receptacle rating (15A non-continuous load on a 15A circuit with more than one receptacle). This proposal was also rejected. I think, from the dim past, there were 3 arguments for:
I believe the math is the same. A ring circuit allows smaller wire to be used, and I think(?) this allowed the use of less copper after WW2.
(For those that haven't heard of them, ring circuits start at the panel, route through the occupancy and return to the panel connecting to the same source. There are 2 paths in parallel. This would be a NEC violation.) (Ring circuits are 230V and from what I have read are 32A. That is way more than 3kW, so 3kW must be a code limit that is applied. "Sockets" can not be placed too near the ends of a ring since one parallel path is much longer and the current doesn't split evenly enough.)
Hot cords DO tend to stink - - -
Since a 20 amp 125 volt oulet accepts 15 amp plugs and they are more "robust" allowing one 20 amp outet on a 15 amp circuit isn't problematic if the circuit is protected by a 15 amp fuse or breaker. If the device draws significantly over 15 amps the protection will trip. A 15 amp PLUG on a 20 amp device is a different story - to a point - the protection will still trip but it encouraged overloading the 15 amp outlet - which itself is NOT designed to handle 20amps
UL and code are 2 separate issues.
UL is Underwriters Laboritories - they are concerned with liability. Also a 15 amp plug can be used in a 20 amp outlet. The cord on the device is designed to not be a safety issue at 15 amps.
OK, since you insist, the obvious point is that since the voltage drop difference between 12 gauge and 14 gauge over 20 feet is one volt, a whopping 0.8%, which is negligible, your advice that at a minimum, a 12 gauge cord is required was wrong:
"The best solution is to install a 20A dedicated GFCI protected circuit on the porch, within 2 feet of where you want to cook my...errr...umm...I mean your breakfast. The next alternative is to use a minimum 12g extension cord, at the shortest length you need."
That isn't the next alternative, there is nothing wrong with a 14 gauge cord. And since you want to get pedantic, by exactly who's standard is the "best solution" to install a dedicated GFCI circuit on the porch within
2 ft of where you want to use the fry pan? Is that what you do? Install a new circuit within two feet of some occasional appliance usage, instead of using an extension cord? And even if they wanted to spend $500 or maybe $1000 getting that done, why must it be "dedicated" to only the fry pan? Happy now?
True. Nothing wrong with 14g, but 12g is better.
Mine.
To a certain extent, yes. Over the years I have installed or extended numerous circuits specifically to eliminate/reduce the use of extension cords. On my deck, under my deck, on the side of the shed, in my shop, garage, basement, kitchen, hallway, etc. For me, the sheer convenience of not having use an extension cord is worth the trouble.
Perfect example: When I bought my planer, I found that my garage circuit could not handle the lights, planer and wet/dry vac. For short time I ran an extension cord from an exterior receptacle to the dust collector. As soon as I had the time, I ran another circuit to the garage for the *occasional* times that I use the planer. That install also allowed me to add a few extra receptacles which eliminated the need for extensions cords in a number of other, more frequent situations.
You sound like one of those infomercials showing the tangled hose or overloaded paper plates. You don't the OP's situation and neither do I. Bringing cost into the discussion is just a diversion.
By "dedicated" I mean not extending another circuit since the device in question may approach the limits of an existing circuit. I did not mean "dedicated to the use of the fry pan". Once it's installed, I'm sure that a receptacle on the OP's porch would be useful for other devices besides making pancakes. My apologies if that was not clear to you.
I tend to be happy most of the time. Nothing said in this group will change that.
And 10g would be even "better" if you're concerned about a negligible 1 volt drop and want to reduce that too. Do you have OCD or something?
Right, that explains a lot.
Over the years I have installed or extended numerous circuits
The OP doesn't have a planer, he has a 1200 or 1500W fry pan.
For short time I ran an extension cord from an exterior
If you don't know the situation, why did you tell him the best solution is to run a new 20A circuit for occasional use of a fry pan?
Bringing cost into the discussion is
Right, because it makes your best solution look ridiculous.
May approach? It's a freaking 1500W or 1200W fry pan! That's 12.5 A or 10A. How is that approaching the limits of your proposed 20A new circuit? Following your logic, because I occasionally use a power washer outside that uses most of the capacity of the various circuits I plug it into, I should run new 20A dedicated circuits all around the perimeter of the house and with only one receptacle on each? WTF?
Good grief. It's looks like you are just looking for reasons to argue. All I did was address your questions and you've twisted my comments in some weird attempt to prove me wrong.
Moving on.
It takes two to Tango to the Last Word Waltz. :-) John T.
There sure has been a lot of discussion for a simple question. I don't need to do all the calculations or anything else.
Chances are the house is wired with # 14 if on a 15 amp breaker, maybe 1 # 12 if on a 20 amp circuit which is doubtful.
So for 25 feet I would go with a # 12 drop cord as I like to slightly over do things,but a # 14 should work fine.
All this assuming in the US and using US guage wires. Other countries wire numbers are sometimes slightly different.
Either way you are spending less than $ 50 for what I take to be a temporary setup. As the OP had to ask I assume they could not do the wireing for receptical theirself. Probably cost over $ 200 labor just to get an elecritcian out not counting the parts and if there is an extra breaker slot in the service panel.
Many years ago, when I was learning about different gauge extension cords, I was asking the same questions. At the time, I was also learning about house wiring, having just bought a mid-50's home that needed some serious electrical upgrades.
If I had asked the same question as the OP about an extension cord, I could certainly understand someone assuming that I could not do the wiring myself. However, "could not do" and "could not learn to do" are very different things. I learned and then I did. As I learned more, I did more. Not just how to do, but what was *possible* to do.
Once the first question is asked and different options are offered, it's not unreasonable to think that the OP might say to himself "Hmm...a receptacle on the porch. That's not a bad idea. I wonder what it would take to make that happen."
In my case, making that happen simply took a little research, some more questions and some new tools. (Sweet!) Just because the OP asked about extension cord size doesn't automatically make me think that he'll have to pay someone to install a receptacle. I choose to think that he may want to learn to do it himself or work with a friend to learn how to do it, etc. There are other options than just calling an electrician.
Your point about a breaker slot being available is valid. However, there are often ways to deal with that situation that don't require a panel upgrade - or even an electrician.
Your comment about it being a "temporary situation" doesn't mean that it has to be one. I can imagine the OP saying "Hmm...a receptacle on the porch. That could mean a heater on the porch, a TV on the porch, a blender on the porch, charging my phone on the porch, all without the need to drag out and put away an extension cord every time. That would be nice."
I doubt that anyone (who doesn't just want to argue) would disagree that a receptacle on the porch is better solution that an extension cord when you consider the convenience that it adds. Even if the OP has to pay to have it done, there is something to be said for paying for an upgrade that makes your life easier and/or more enjoyable. In other words, I choose to not focus on just the use of the fry pan, but to offer a solution that not only addresses the fry pan issue but also adds value above and beyond the immediate need.
Not being a licensed electrician I may have it wrong.
My impression is that if something is UL listed it means they checked it out to see if it is elecrtrically save when used like the instructions tell you to. That does not even mean it will actually work,just that it will not catch fire or shock you , so to speak.
So you don't see a problem putting a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit for a window air conditioner (circuit has a single receptacle)? So someone can look at the receptacle and get an air conditioner that requires a 20A circuit? (Then when the breaker trips they will figure out the 15A CB should have been 20A?) How about a 30A receptacle? I don't think that is prohibited either.
It is a stupid idea. That is why g said "you can never have a 20a receptacle on a 15a circuit." And why there was a code change proposal. I agree with both. But maybe in Canada....
Are you saying a 20A receptacle is more "robust"? A duplex 15A receptacle is rated 20A total for the 2 halves. And the straps with screws on both sides are rated 20A wire-through.
The NEC uses "120V" and "240V".
Of course no one was talking about that.
So you think it is not a problem if a UL listed device is likely to be used in a way that violates the NEC? Maybe that is true in Canada.
UL is concerned with safety.
You may know as much as electricians.
I like adding "instructions".
Not practical to test if a TV works (rather than safe, fails safely).
For electrical power products - fuses, receptacles, switches, ... they test if they work. I have the UL standard for garden variety wall switches. There are several sets of thousands of different operations with load.
I worked as an industrial electrician and instrument person. It is not that I do not know how to solve most problems, but I never had to keep up with the electrical code. Most work was either repairing, installing, or finding out what was wrong with others installations. Small amount of retrofit design work that an engineer checked over to see if it met the code. Worked on all most anything from 24 volt DC control circuits to 480 volt
3 phase at a couple of hundred amps, even a slight bit of some higher voltage stuff,but not much. I just did not like working aound with anything over 1000 volts. Most anything is good for insulation to about that voltge, but above that you start getting into problems where the insulation may or may not breakdown.Wow. I want to fry a few pancakes. My grill did the trick. Glad I did not ask a bigger question. Thanks again for the replies. I did do popcorn for this event and burned nothing to the ground.
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