UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

[thrugoodmarshall]

If you suspect fraud, write to:

1. Your State's Attorney general.
2. The dispute department of your credit card company.

Document what you just told us. Provide details (times, dates, names of who you spoke to, copies of orders, etc.)

Say in the letter to your ccard company (copy the vendor & the AG) "The vendor has failed to fulfill his side of the purchase contract (document this)" "I have made a good faith effort to resolve the issue with the vendor (document this)" "The vendor has failed to act in good faith (document this)" "Therefore, I dispute charges on date [xxx] from vendor [xxx] in the amount of [xxx]"

Sign and date. Use certified mail if you want a record of it, but you don't need to.

If these things are true and you have documentation to back them up, you should have no problem. Assuming that you acted within your ccard company's time window.

Typically ccard company says "OK, you said he ripped you off; we believe you; here's the money back and we won't pay him. Hope you didn't lie, because then you committed fraud. We're not involved; just doing what you told us to do."

Within the time limit, it's no risk to the ccard company because they haven't paid him yet.

Did you use paypal? Pay by check? Very little recourse here, and now you know WHY the vendor won't take a ccard!

[Mike Berger]

There's no evidence in what you wrote that somebody sent you a known bad part. You're making an awful lot of assumptions.

However, it is up to the shipper to make any damage claims with UPS.

Sawney Beane wrote:

[CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert]

Also mail fraud is a federal offence in the US.

[Robertm]

In my business I ship and receive. The UPS customer is the shipper, the receiver is the consignee. Therefore UPS doesn't have much interest in talking to the person receiving the package.

Bob

[Bubba]

Wanna make me...............Bobby? Bubba

[Bubba]

So many lines of uttter bullshit. You are a tight ass and got exactly what you paid for. A good HVAC company will have almost every igniter on their truck (or at least one that will work over the weekend). I can get any parts house to open up at night or on a weekend for a fee of $0 to $100 depending on the store. You are cheap and didnt want to do it and didnt want to pay a guy overtime. Spend the money or go play on the internet. Its you choice. Just stop whinnin and bitchin like its someone else's fault. ITS YOURS. Bubba

[mm]

You're too suspiciuos for your own good. They fail after 5 years instead of after 10. Just stop touching them already.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.

[Sawney Beane]

Terry, thanks a lot! The pdf indicates that it's widely believed that a visual inspection will show whether an ignitor is operable. I now believe my online dealer is honest.

White-Rodgers has developed a nitride converstion kit because HVAC men get so many callbacks on installations of silicon carbide ignitors. If the professionals can screw in a light bulb without breaking it, I think they can install an ignitor without damaging it. The skin-oil myth must be an attempt to explain failures where no other cause is known.

Is Supco the only company that tries to expose myths about checking and handling ignitors? If other companies are complacement about the misinformation, maybe they're also complacent about quality control.

[Sawney Beane]

Hello, Troll.

There's one company in this area that services my brand. In June I paid them $400 for a board I could have bought for $150. I figured meeting their price was like paying a laywer a retainer. If I had an emergency, they'd know I was a customer.

When my furnace wouldn't burn, I didn't think about the internet. I phoned the HVAC company. Their machine gave me a cell phone number. I called that number and got another machine. I explained that my house was cold and I needed an ignitor. I sat in the cold by the phone two hours, waiting.

I would have been willing to wait until Monday or later to get heat, but it looked as these people were not even willing to talk to me. Did I go shopping online? No, I went around the neighborhood asking if anyone could recommend an HVAC man. I didn't get a single lead.

I returned home and found that somebody had hung up on my answering machine. I called friends and relatives. The only recommendation I got was for a part-time HVAC man who lived 50 miles away and didn't deal with my brand.

That's when I went online. Four days later I phoned the HVAC company where I used to be a generous customer. The woman recognized my voice and said she had returned my call Saturday but got my answering machine. That was her excuse for not being willing to speak to me when I needed help.

The high markup I paid her company was money down the toilet. Judging by the number of recommendations I got, arrogance like yours and hers must be very common in the HVAC industry. I'm glad I found a reliable, helpful dealer on the internet. He's a prince among HVAC men.

[Sawney Beane]

Until November 29, I assumed he had not known the part was bad. I thought it was wrong to blame UPS and wondered why he insisted that his visual inspection proved it had been good. As Terry documented above, a visual inspection means nothing. If he'd made the recommended electrical check, he would have known it was cracked.

Then he shipped me another ignitor in spite of my telling him repeatedly that I didn't want or need it. November 23, when I said the first one was broken, his wife immediately said they were sending another. I emailed her and talked to her on the phone, asking her not to send it because I knew where to get one locally. She agreed and none was sent.

Six days later, at 5:45 AM November 29, without my requesting one, he emailed me to say he was sending one. When I read it at 1:30, I immediately replied asking him not to send any. At 4:30 UPS sent me a message that he had told them to pick up my package. When I read it at 6:30, I phoned and left a message identifying myself and asking them please not to send it. At 8:30 UPS picked it up.

To call that a mixup stretches my credibility a long way. If it were an honest mistake, wouldn't he have emailed me in the three days since?

His shipments include a paper with the UPS phone number telling customers it's up to them to contact UPS and claim damages. He leads the receiver to expect payment from UPS. Is it a fact that a claim by the receiver will result in a payment to the shipper? Do you believe that all this time he has been ignorant of this?

Mike Berger wrote:

[CBHVAC]

Done what you should have done then....paid the nice man to come install one with a warranty.... I mean....the GOOD replacement ignitors are not that much...and I have a feeling you paid more than $20 for the one you got that was broken.

[Bubba]

Still just more lines of utter nonsense. $400 for a board that you could have gotten for $150. Are you forgetting that you didnt know it was the board until the service man diagnosed it and had the part on his truck? You didnt know what was wrong and you didnt have that part in your basement stock, did you? You dont really think that a company on the internet is going to sell you a board for the same price that a hvac company is going to charge you when they have it on their truck and will install it with a warranty do you? On top of that, you probably called him on a weekend. Do you think we all sit next to the phone on the weekend waiting for your call so we can spring from our chair and rush right out to your bullshit call. Id bet you dont even service your unit and only wait till it breaks before you start calling and begging someone to come to your rescue. Now you say you went walking the neighborhood and asking everyone if they had a service company they would recommend? You are so full of shit. You never did that. What? You trying to tell me that you live in a town where everyone has a wood stove to heat their home? I think you are a whinner. I hope you enjoy your internet company. It should be interesting when your furnace breaks on a cold winter nite and you call your internet company for service. Have fun, Bubba

[Colbyt]

Normally I never disagree with you, CBHVAC because you do offer some good free advice now and then. I know the cost on them is 15-20$ but is that what you sell them for "off the truck"? Around here most of the hvac guy double the msrp and sell them for about $75 plus the service call charge.

Colbyt

[cornytheclown]

Well...if the second ignitor is good you now have a spare....in a couple of years the current ignitor will go bad...maybe sooner if you didnt get it put back just right.

I worked for the gas company years ago and we had to go out and inspect gas furnace installations....I remember this one company always had a lot of trouble with the hot surface ignitors in their furnaces being broken even before the furnace was put into use. They would be broken by the rough handling the furnaces received from their installing personell....dropping the furnaces etc.....

silicon carbide is fragile.....and the problem with oil from your fingers is this....it causes the silicon carbide to heat up at a different rate where the oil is....it makes it not heat evenly and this puts stress on the fragile material.

[cornytheclown]

Well...if the second ignitor is good you now have a spare....in a couple of years the current ignitor will go bad...maybe sooner if you didnt get it put back just right.

I worked for the gas company years ago and we had to go out and inspect gas furnace installations....I remember this one company always had a lot of trouble with the hot surface ignitors in their furnaces being broken even before the furnace was put into use. They would be broken by the rough handling the furnaces received from their installing personell....dropping the furnaces etc.....

silicon carbide is fragile.....and the problem with oil from your fingers is this....it causes the silicon carbide to heat up at a different rate where the oil is....it makes it not heat evenly and this puts stress on the fragile material.

[CBHVAC]

It depends....really. Some of those damn things cost more than $25...but installed? Depends...if its a simple one, reach in and pull a 1/4 inch screw, unplug a molex and reverse, and out in 15 minutes...ive done it for free for some folks...pay for the part...my cost, and remember me when its something else.. Off the truck, under $20 for the cheaper ones....and if its just a quickie like that..under $75.... Ceramic ones...maybe $30..not installed, but about the same installed if there is one that can be put in the same place...with the same base. I dont use that flat rate shit....sometimes, more often than not, it screws the customer.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

The Old price setting theory is to double any price under $30.00 and

60% on Parts over $30.00 up to $100.00 then 30% on parts over $100.00. Now these prices are for to mark up Wholesale parts.

TURTLE

[thrugoodmarshall]

That's *mail* fraud. OP specified UPS.

Cornell's got a convenient copy of the code (Title 39) at

or you could download it from the house Understanding and applying it, however, is another story. I understand people go to special schools just for that, and make entire careers of it.

Strange.

[GregRo]

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 01:21:36 -0500, Sawney Beane

Sawney, Here is what to do if he keeps sending you parts and charging for it. Report you credit card lost to the credit card company. This is the only way to get it hot listed, plus no one won't be able to get your new number.

If you say your card is compromised, they could still get your new number. If it is a local bank that you have your credit card with. You might want to report that merchant for fraudulent activity. They will close his\\her merchants account down.

Greg Ro

[trader4]

The problem with Sawney's theory that this "mom and pop" internet vendor is running a scam is this. UPS is not stupid. How many claims for shipping damage do you think UPS will pay for one shipper before they either refuse further shipments or call the cops for fraud? Sure, a vendor could get away with it once in awhile, but it's kind of hard to believe they could do it enough to make it worthwhile.

What to do is obvious. It's up to the shipper to pursue the claim with UPS. Send them an email telling them that. And notify the credit card company that you are disputing the unauthorized charge for the second item, as well as a refund for the first legitimate transaction because the item was returned.