UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

[Sawney Beane]

I seem to be dealing with an online retailer who has access to parts that failed factory QC tests. His goods arrive with a note saying if the part arrives broken, it's the fault of UPS and it's the buyer's responsibility to contact UPS. Then he sends another even if the buyer has repeatedly asked him not to, by phone and email. As a result, he buys one part wholesale and bills the buyer twice for his retail price and shipping. I'd like to know who to contact.

Here's what happened. Saturday, November 19, my house was cold because the hot-surface ignitor in the furnace had cracked after fifteen years of thermal shocks. If on Monday I learned I would have to order one, Thanksgiving delays might leave me without heat more than ten days.

I ordered one immediately online from a mom-and-pop business. They advertised a sale on the model I needed, although the discount was small. It would arrive the day before Thanksgiving.

Meanwhile, neighbors and I tried to figure out what the filament was made of. As the ignitor was useless, I was not at all gentle. Like an iron alloy, it was very strong and somewhat flexible.

On the internet I learned that the material is recrystalized silicon carbide, known for its strength and resistance to thermal shock. NASA uses it.

The package arrived the 23rd, covered with "FRAGILE!" stickers. Inside, crumpled newsprint surrounded the manufacturer's box, which had no such warning. In the box, the ignitor was surrounded by foam rubber, a common precaution against being dropped on concrete, for example. Heat marks showed that Quality Control had tested it.

Those unexpected "FRAGILE!" labels scared me. I carried it to the table as gently as a thin-shelled hen's egg. When I opened my hand, I saw that the filament was broken in three places. I was certain a shock had cracked it before it arrived.

In the dealer's box I found a folded warning tucked in at the side where the newsprint had hidden it. It wrongly called the filament glass and said it was so fragile that the customer shouldn't touch it. It said he'd broken a few himself, but very few were broken in shipping. If one arrived broken, it wasn't his fault because he had inspected it, and the customer should put in a claim with UPS. It gave a phone number.

The warning then gave several reasons it would be the customer's fault if the ignitor failed soon. I wondered why the warning had not been on top, where the customer would see it first, why none of this information had been on his informative website, why the manufacturer had included no warning, and why he insisted that his visual inspection guaranteed there had been no cracks in a material with a gritty surface.

I emailed them to say it was broken and ask how soon they could send another. They replied that they were sending another. I replied to say I didn't want another because I had found a local outlet. I phoned a few minutes later. The wife said she was reading my message and would cancel the shipment.

It wasn't easy reporting the damage to UPS. The process seemed to be for shippers, not receivers. Two days later, November 25, I bought an ignitor and, after six days, had heat. UPS acknowledged my claim. They seemed to think I was the shipper, not the receiver.

It seemed to me that the problem was really quality control, and blaming UPS was unfair to consumers as well as UPS. November 28 I emailed the dealer to say my new ignitor was working fine, and I thought the broken one must have come from the factory with invisible cracks. I said I thought the manufacturer could catch such defects with a machine that would cycle ignitors several times while monitoring current draw.

He replied that he knew UPS had damaged it because he had inspected it. He was sorry for my trouble and would ship me another one. I replied asking him not to send another one because I already had a new one, but I thought the factory had a quality-control problem that could be fixed easily.

I checked my email at 1:30 PM the next day, November 29. At 5:45 AM, he had sent a message informing me he was sending another ignitor. I immediately replied, telling please not to send another because I already had one.

At 4:30 PM UPS sent me a message that he had told them to pick up a package he was sending me. At 6:30 PM I read the email and and immediately phoned the dealer. I left a message on his machine stating my name and telling him please not to send the ignitor because I didn't need one. The next day, UPS tracking informed me that he had given them the package two hours later, at 8:30.

In 48 hours they have not showed the courtesy to respond to my email or my phone call. They sent me an item which I never asked for and in two phone calls and at least three emails over a period of seven days, I asked them not to send. I presume they have charged my credit card without authorization.

I think I am dealing with crooks who have caused me a lot of trouble, misused my credit card, told me to file a claim against a company I don't think is at fault, and caused me to spend Thanksgiving with my house at 48 degrees. What do I do now?

[Bubba]

Find a reputable licensed hvac contractor in your area and start calling them and stop futzing with shit you have no clue about. You got exactly what you paid for. That had to be the funniest post Ive read in a long time. Cant really believe I read it all. Bubba

[Colbyt]

If this is a true story, I hope they kissed you because they sure as heck ............

Find a local supplier and buy what you need. Fight the CC battles and get your money back.

And a very important side note. Wear gloves when you handle the igniter. The oils from your hand can cause a premature failure if any part of the "ceramic" is touched. Learned that one the hard way.

Colbyt

[Rich Greenberg]

Tell UPS that you are not accepting the shipment and they should return it.

Dispute the charge with the CC company. This MUST be in writing and sent certified mail.

Next time buy from a local reputable company.

[m Ransley]

buy 5 more see what happens

[Trajen]

Good advice Rich.

Sawney, sorry but i fell asleep somewhere between the 5th and 14th paragraph, did you happen to say who you purchased the ignitor from? Please let us know.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

This is true.

Credit Card company

So, it was OK leaving the factory.

Yes, that is the way UPS handles things.

Above you said it showed that QC tested it. Why do you insist on blaming the factory when in fact they did test it?

OK, the guy is trying to make things right.

Some confusion here. Just refuse the package.

You said you already bought one local. It is just your non-professional opinion that the seller is wrong, but evidence you posted points to the contrary. Send it back, refuse it, get a credit and move on with life. You were wrong, IMO to accuse the company of malpractice.

[RicodJour]

Contact the credit card company - tell them you suspect fraud. Same with UPS. Be aware if you go into laborious detail you will probably be considered a crank. Ultimately you should have learned that you don't gamble on important things like a heated house to save a few bucks. There are plenty of other places to save money that don't have the consequences.

R

[Terry]

I've never had one fail due to touching it. Rough handling, yes

I can't see a little skin oil doing anything to the silicone carbide. After a split second of heating, no oil.

[Red Neckerson]

Trying to be a cheapskate and buy second-hand shit when you should have gotten it locally (and maybe paid a couple bucks more).

Face it: You f***ed up. Pay the money to get the right part from a repuable company and then shut the f*ck up.

Lesson learned, tight ass.....

[Dr. Hardcrab]

Did you mean reputable?

It WAS a reputable company! I mean, he DID find it on the internet, and the internet is ALWAYS right.......

[Colbyt]

I am far from an expert in the field. Repeating what I was told after a very premature failure that was not repeated after wearing gloves. Was told that the oil causes overheating.

Colbyt

[Bob]

start

about. You

Cant really

Why don't you go back to alt.hvac with the rest of the losers there. You are of no use here, it seems.

Bob

[Stretch]

Don't touch the surface of the Hot Surface Ignitor with your skin. It has been known for at least 20 years that will lead to premature failure. If you don't know what you are doing, you would be better off hiring a contractor to fix it for you. It would certainly be faster and you would get a warranty as well. If you want to save LOTS of money, turn the furnace off and leave it off. Then you won't need to buy parts on the internet.

Not trying to be a harda--, just surprised what some people will do to save a little money.

Stretch (HVAC contractor in South Carolina)

[Bob]

your skin. It

premature

be better off

be faster

LOTS of

won't need to

people will do to

Now that's a much better presentation!

Bob

[Sawney Beane]

Like you, the local HVAC people seemed to think I should leave my furnace off indefinitely. I turned to the internet to keep from catching cold. I would have been glad to pay more locally.

Last summer lightning hit my chimney and killed my AC. The 24V 3A fuse was blown on the computer board in the furnace. To isolate the problem, I disconnected the 24V leads going to the thermostat and put in a 5A fuse. I would be standing by the power switch and the bigger fuse would be less likely to blow instantly.

I found there was a short on the board and called the HVAC company. I had a stool ready so the repairman wouldn't get his butt cold and dirty.

He expressed gratitude for the stool. Then he saw the disconnected wires and chewed me out. It seemed to go on for ever. With my lifetime of experience getting into trouble, I didn't argue because that would not have assured him at all.

He said the trouble was that HVAC men don't neccessarily adhere to color codes, so he had no idea which wire went where. I said I could tell him. He asked how. I said I'd made notes and diagrams of the wires I'd removed, but it probably wouldn't be necessary to get my notes because I'd used masking tape to fasten the thermostat wires in the proper order. He said he would have done the same.

I said I thought lightning had shorted something on the board. He asked how I knew. I said the transformer had hummed. He asked how I'd known it was the transformer. I said I'd put my finger on it. He tried it and agreed. He said he needed to hook things up anyway. I told him the order of the blower leads and checked my notes to be sure. This time the humming stopped. I said the short had probably burned open. He agreed.

I told him I'd rebuilt the computer board after a flood seven years ago. I said finding sources for the components had been a hassle. He said that he simply replaced boards because a factory instructor had told him a DMM would zap the semiconductors. I said I thought that information was obsolete. I said it was true when I had started, in the days of VOMs and germanium, but nowadays it seemed all a tech had to watch out for was static.

He shook my hand and apologized for getting mad. I would have been mad, too. I'd left the wires undone because I hadn't realized wiring could confuse a pro. I was glad I'd met him because I found him honest, competent, and reliable.

I could have gotten a new board through the internet for $150. He quoted $400 and a wait of just as many days. I bought from him because I trusted him. I said I'd like one of those diagnosing boards because it would be good to be able to phone and tell him what was wrong if I ever had trouble. He agreed that it would be a good choice for me.

Two weeks ago the board said it was an ignition failure. One component on the burner had one thin wire. The other had two fat wires. A sensor wouldn't need two fat wires, so that was the ignitor. It read open on a DMM.

I called the HVAC company. Their machine gave me a cellphone number in case of emergency. I was pretty cold, so I dialed it. That machine said they'd get back to me. After sitting by the phone two hours in a cold house, it was hard to unbend my legs to stand up. Apparently they were unwilling to speak to a hypothermic man on a Saturday. I wouldn't be able to check until Monday, and I was afraid the ignitor would have to be ordered, like my computer board. I wanted to be sure I could get the part Monday, but nobody I knew could think of a place that sold furnace parts. The uncertainty that I could get it locally drove me to the internet.

[Sawney Beane]

It made me suspicious that the warning, apparently intended to be read after the customer had handled the ignitor, didn't say *why* touching it would cause failure. I knew skin oil would break a quartz bulb by causing it to absorb radiant energy unevenly, but that wouldn't apply to an ignitor.

When I bought one locally, the distributor said it was skin oil. I suspected that was a myth to explain why some ignitors soon failed. One manufacturer sells nitride converstion kits because repairmen get so many callbacks after replacing crystalized silicon carbide ignitors. I think the failure process begins when stress, shock, or vibration causes a tiny surface crack. If it takes time and perhaps thermal cycles for the crack to grow, the cause is unclear when it fails.

[Sawney Beane]

I'll do that. I think probably this one is okay, but I don't need it now and don't trust the vendor.

I don't think certified mail is necessary. I had couple of problems several years ago. My bank agreed and I got chargebacks. This month, for the first time since then, I wrote to my bank about another charge I considered fraudulent. I've gotten a chargeback. It's a powerful weapon because the offending company must pay a big penalty to the CC company. Now another problem in the same month? These things must come in clusters.

This is the first problem I've had with a small, unknown company. I think it's the big companies who have the MBAs who see how much they can improve the bottom line by bilking CC customers. Most customers won't complain. If the other shoe falls and chargebacks spoil the bottom line, those MBAs expect to be long gone.

[Sawney Beane]

That's what the vendor says, but I don't see how the damage could have occurred subsequently in the foam package. Heat marks prove only that it was cycled once, which would not necessarily have shown cracking. Now that the vendor has sent me an ignitor that I have five times asked him not to send, I mistrust him. I think the factory tested it properly and discarded it.

Anyway, it's certainly not glass as the vendor said.

If the vendor was honest, the manufacturer had failed to catch these cracks. As I said, repeatedly cycling an ignitor would cause any cracks to grow and become evident by monitoring current. If the vendor was honest, it seemed the manufacturer hadn't been so thorough.

By sending me something I had told him five times I didn't want?

Confusion?

What's your point?

Should I rely on the opinion of a professional who says a DMM will wreck a semiconductor or skin oil will wreck an HSI?

If the manufacturer said these ignitors often shattered when double boxed and well padded, that would be significant. If the manufacturer said his QC was ineffectual, that would be significant. If UPS said very few of this vendor's ignitor customers had problems, that would be significant.

What evidence did I post that says UPS broke it?

[CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert]

UPS should have been yoru hint. Its not yoru problem its the sellers problem. Call the credit card company and ask the procedure to deal with not paying the seller. Do what they say. Call seller and tell him to kiss yoru ass.

why can't I type 'your'???