I would use type-K soft copper. You can solder it with the newer type of solder. Be aware that some of the newer types of solder have a very small difference between the liquidus and solidus temperatures and this makes for much more difficult soldering than the old 50/50 lead solder now long since banned. There are formulations that have improved characteristics. Bridgit® is one type that has a wide plastic range and makes strong joints due to the use of nickel in the mix. Some have advised sanding the inside of fittings and the outside of the pipe. This is correct. Also, be sure to ream (deburr) the inside of the pipe as well. There are many handy deburring tools out there. I would not use type-M. Be aware that not everyone uses the color code correctly. Check the printed material to verify thickness.
So are the professional plumbers that rely on solder flux, and rather new, shiny pipe, remiss in failing to sand their joints? I haven't performed a comprehensive survey on what professional plumbers do, on this matter. Perhaps you can enlighten me. Thanks.
My sister in law in Jacksonville recently had to do the same thing to her house. She used plastic pipe. They did the house in a weekend, Kitchen and 2 full baths. The only trouble they ran into was in the shower wall in one of the bathrooms because it was tile and had no access panel behind the wall. They did the new tile a different weekend.
Thanks to all who replied. I think I'm going with type I copper.
John, your advise was very useful and I appreciate the time you took to respond. All my piping is copper, so the iron pipe isn't an issue. I do intend to have the stops that have not yet been replaced, replaced with steel-braided risers as well as bringing the plumbing up to code. One of the plumbers who will be giving me a bid also motioned standpipes to reduce water hammer.
Effi, code in this area doesn't allow PVC, but thanks for your advise. Ron
Here's a more complete quote, which implies something quite different:
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from the tap in the kitchen with copper pipes. He also had good healthcare and a reasonably varied diet. Many things in our environment can increase the risk of cancer, but for most who develop it no single thing caused it, instead the effect was an accumulation of many things working together. Unfortunately there are no certainties in life, anybody regardless of age, lifestyle and environment can get cancer."
In other words, anecdotes of single events are often not very good at proving causality when so many other factors come into play.
"Copper has well-defined hazards. Plastic is still under investigation and it will be a long time before the hazards are as well-known as copper."
Well, I googled "copper pipe schizophrenia" and the first few hits seemed to be written by extremist wingnuts, so I quickly got bored with it. Googling simply "copper schizophrenia" revealed that in addition to excess copper, INsufficient copper is a factor and that in some individuals elevated copper was not a cause but an _effect_ of their genetic predisposition (Wilson's disease).
So myself, if the water's been sitting for a few hours or more, I don't trust ANY pipe not to leach nasties into my water, plastic or metal. Before I use any water for drinking or cooking, I make sure I've flushed a toilet to clear any standing water in the lateral from the main up to the house, then run the faucet for enough time till the water feels cold. It's no extra effort because there's usually something to flush in the toilet* and there's usually a dish to rinse or some hands to wash in the sink.
*we conserve via the "yellow, let it mellow; brown, flush it down" method except when company is there.
it was a verbatim quote, you are not offering a more complete quote, you are simply quoting more
no, the text you quote indicates the copper was a contributing factor to the dog's cancer, and, in fact, mentions no other known causes of cancer regarding the dog's cancer (unless you consider the "good healthcare and a reasonably varied diet" cited to be carcinogenic)
the point was made the dog was not given water out of a plastic garden type (outside) hose but was given water from an inside faucet fed with water through copper pipe and the dog got cancer
again, the quoted data mentions no other known causes of cancer for the dog, just the copper
it is abundantly clear you have not read all the previously cited information on this issue of copper causing cancer
you are also trying to imply the data available that copper can cause cancer is wrong
you are wrong
translation: no hazards with pvc (assuming you quote "plastic" as relevant to, or meaning, pvc), which is what the available data says
if you can't show data to the contrary, your position to the contrary is based on nothing, and it means nothing
you didn't "google copper pipe cancer" (you googled "copper pipe schizophrenia" and "copper schizophrenia"), then you compared your googlings to "google copper pipe cancer", you are a failure at reading comprehension
all unnecessary with pvc pipe
enjoy your copper if you must, it's very unhealthy, and can cause cancer (numerous links posted to substantiate this, research it yourself further, no additional info will be offered since it's already here, you just haven't read it)
I take offense to Effie not plonking modervador. Effi's response indicated one was coming but when I scrolled to the end - nothing. We've all been plonked by Effi for saying nicer things than modervador. Again, I am upset.
"Chocolate is the third most common cause of poisoning in dogs. Certain chemicals in chocolate, notably caffeine and theobromine, can cause erratic heartbeat and in large enough doses can kill your pup."
In this case, by quoting more, one truly does provide a more complete quote. It is difficult to see how it could be otherwise. Your quote, verbatim though it was, was far from complete. Mine was both verbatim and more complete.
garden type
The point made was that the dog got cancer DESPITE being watered from copper pipes exclusively. The author (Bry84) had earlier made the point that a garden hose had a very good chance of leaching toxins into the water.
together.
The quote in fact mentions "[m]any things in our environment can increase the risk of cancer." The dog got cancer despite the copper water supply, despite not being watered from a plastic hose, therefore from one or several of the "many things."
One need go no farther than the first of that author's quotes in that gardenweb thread to see if he thinks copper caused his dog's cancer:
"I drink hundereds of gallons of water from these pipes every year, cook with it and wash in it. I'm not comfortable using anything except copper as it's totally safe and doesn't affect the water." -Bry84.
The paucity of what I have provided is insufficient for you to make so bold a statement about what I may or may not have read. However, your inability to divine Bry84's intent from his posts to the gardenweb thread certainly calls into question your ability to assimilate what _you_ have read.
investigation
Yes, plastic in the context of that quote is PVC or CPVC. So no, your translation is incorrect: unknown hazards are far different from hazards proven not to exist.
My position on PVC is that it is most likely to be inert, and that trace amounts that leach into the water are easy to rinse away. My position is also that since it is relatively new, we are still serving as guinea pigs for long-term product testing. The jury is still out.
Conversely, copper is a nutrient, part of a healthy diet when not taken to excess. Copper from pipes is in most cases well below the recommended daily requirement for this nutrient. The symptoms of copper toxicity are well-known and reversible if the source of the excess is eliminated. So copper pipes may be "the Devil you know."
comprehension
Your words: "copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans." I don't believe anybody could construe that as a directive NOT to google "copper pipe schizophrenia." I was trying to research your claim that copper pipe causes schizophrenia in humans. I made no comparison between schizophrenia and cancer; that is your miscomprehending what I did.
But since you want to drag it out of me, I had also googled "copper pipe cancer" and found the overwhelming majority of the first pages of hits to be references to carcinogens in PVC pipes with copper as the safer alternative, as well as some use of copper compounds in prevention and treatment of cancer. I didn't think that was the result you wanted to hear, so I held it back till I could get more specific links from you.
Show me where I said I have copper pipe.
Also, please go ahead and post those links which say that copper pipes cause cancer (or schizophrenia for that matter). I've read lots of stuff, but this thread contains only the gardenweb reference, and it is far from authoritative for or against. It is your claim that copper pipe causes cancer (and schizophrenia), so you should have those references handy to back up the claims; it should not be up to me to research it to make your case for you. My research reveals the opposite of your claims. For instance the following seem to be from respectable sources, but they mention cancer only in association with contaminants other than copper and do not link copper to cancer despite every opportunity to do so:
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In fact, the last references state "Iron, copper, and zinc are common heavy metals found in drinking water, but they are not considered carcinogens" and "Copper is not known to cause cancer." Now, despite the alleged "respectability" of those sources, I cannot say for sure if they have been vetted by the process of peer review. Any crackpot can throw up a website and make it look "respectable." Thus one may have more confidence in studies published in the peer-reviewed medical literature available at PubMed:
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There I find that in the vast majority of articles that deal with elevated copper levels and cancer, elevated copper is implicated as a result of cancer, not the cause. (One should not confuse copper ingestion with arsenic ingestion or occupational exposure to copper compounds.) Copper chelation (which induces copper defficiency) has thus been investigated as a means to slow the progression of cancer. By the same token, reducing bloodflow to a tumor will also slow the tumor's growth, but it would be a stretch to claim that blood causes cancer.
So please provide those links to credible, preferrably peer-reviewed sources to back up your claims. I've provided a few to back up my position. As to the issue of toxins leaching from "plastic" pipe, I leave you with:
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"Much has been written about the potential health effects of residual vinyl chloride monomer, or RVCM which is found in trace amounts in plastics containing Polyvinyl Chloride, including CPVC and PVC pipe. Proponents and detractors alike continue to debate the long-term health impact due to extended exposure to RVCM.
"VCM is made by heating ethylene dichlroride (EDC) to 700 degrees F in the presence of oxygen. VCM is used to produce PVC resins which are used to make pipe and other materials using a process known as polymerization. During this process, most, but not all of the VCM is consumed. Trace amounts remain trapped in the PVC resin where it either outgasses into the atmosphere, or migrates into food or drink stored in containers or pipes made of PVC. This remaining chemical is residual vinyl chloride monomer, or RVCM.
"... However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs which exceed government standards, can lead to neurological and liver effects as well as cancer, such as angiosarcoma - a normally rare form of liver cancer."
The critical thing here is although it clearly says that RVCM leaches into the water, it falls far short of stating that the levels approach even a small fraction of carcinogenic.
I'll flush my pipes before I drink from them anyway.
%mod%
P.S. If copper from pipes causes cancer, then megadoses should cause a clear increase in cancer rate, right? I'll leave it to you to decide if the following "failure to prove the positive" equates to "proving the nagative."
Drug Nutr Interact. 1988;5(4):395-401. Influence of copper and zinc on urethan-induced adenoma development in mice. Blakley BR. Department of Veterinary Physiological Sciences, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.
Female Swiss mice were exposed to zinc chloride (0 to 500 ug/mL) or copper sulfate (0 to 200 ug/mL) in their drinking water for 15 weeks. After 3 weeks of the exposure period, the mice were administered urethan (1.5 mg/g) intraperitoneally. Urethan-induced pulmonary adenoma formation was evaluated 12 weeks later. Zinc exposure increased the number of adenomas produced but reduced the mean tumor diameter in the intermediate treatment groups, 50 and 200 ug/mL. Exposure to copper had no effect on tumor size or on tumor number. Weight gains in the mice were not affected by copper or zinc treatment, although a dose-dependent reduction in water consumption was observed with copper. Water consumption in mice exposed to zinc was elevated in one treatment group (50 ug/mL). Urethan-induced sleeping times, which reflect the rate of urethan excretion, were prolonged by zinc exposure but were unaffected by copper exposure. This finding suggests that zinc exposure impairs the elimination of urethan and enhances its carcinogenic activity, which is manifested by increased tumor formation.
you apparently have missed out on a tremendous amount of information posted here recently
rather than repost it, which is what you suggest whether you realize it or not, google this group (alt.home.repair), snipped-for-privacy@ev1.net as the author, and copper cancer here:
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it could only be expected someone would try to champion copper pipe, it is an industry going down the proverbial drain
and remember " If your house has copper pipes don't wait for cancer or schizophrenia to claim a family member. Change all the copper pipe to PVC plastic immediately."
in fact, limiting your search to "all of the words" copper and "author" snipped-for-privacy@ev1.net, you will get even more information on the health risks of copper plumbing
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go ahead and try to champion copper pipe, someone else will if you don't, and by doing so you will save another human from making the same mistake you are
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