If only it were anywhere near that simple. A coil of black pipe on a garage roof doesn't make a dandy pool heater. Not one that's going to make a rat's ass difference in extending the pool season by a couple of weeks in even the mid-Atlantic region, let alone the frozen north. Go to any of the websites that sell or discuss solar pool heating and you'll find that the solar collector needs to be about the size of the pool surface. So, a 40X20 pool needs an 800 sq ft collector on a south facing roof. Don't have a south facing roof? Then you can use a west facing roof, but then you need an even larger collector because there is less sun. So, how big is that garage roof? And even then, you'll find that there are all caveats that go with it, like recommending that you also use a pool cover to cut down heat loss. Don't want to screw around with a pool cover? Then you need an even bigger solar collector. That's why gas pool heaters are typically 200 to 400K BTUs. You don't get that kind of heat out of a roll of black pipe.
As for using that loop to pre-heat water for the water heater in the summer, that doesn't compute either. Many homes are going to draw most of the hot water in the evening or early morning when there is little or no sun. My entire gas bill to heat water in the summer is under $20 a month. Not much incentive to go screwing around with installing a "coil" of black pipe on the roof, especially when you realize it;s not quite that simple.
That's not to say solar pool heating doesn;t work. It works in places like Florida or AZ, where there is lots of sun and the cool down over night is far less than what it is in NY. Even there, it takes a system like described above, not a roll of pipe.
This poster has an obvious misunderstanding of how corporations work and what they are legally required to do. There is no legal requirement that every activity they undertake must have a demonstrable ROI. One clear example is money corporations donate to charities, schools, etc. In the case of any environmental endeavor, not that they even have to give a good explanation, but if some gadfly asked at the annual meeting "Why are you wasting money on XYZ green project?", all they have to say is that they want to be an environmentally responsible corporation and they believe it helps the corporate image and brings value in the long run. End of story.
In the case of Walmart, I don't know how much they are spending/doing with green energy, but I can guarantee it's such a small drop in the bucket, that it's impact on the bottom line is negligible. And their motivation is likely driven in part to try to alleviate all the bad publicity they get from the left wing loons who try to portray them as some kind of evil empire.
Anyone that understands the basic facts about solar electricity knows that without large govt subsidies, it's totally economically unviable for replacement of conventional electricity at today's electricity rates. With a 40% federal subsidy and various state subsidies, then it can make sense for an individual or corporation, but only because the rest of us are paying for it. How much sense that makes is highly questionable. Clearly, there isn't enough subsidy money available for deployment to make even a dent in our overall electricity usage. There is the theory that by doing so, it will eventually drive the price down so that it becomes cost effective and can stand on it's own. But a good question then becomes, rather than using billions of taxpayers money to deploy something that isn't cost effective, could the money or even less money be used more effectively for research to develop solar technology and manufacturing methods that would be cost effective?
Yes, just another example of a real issue that people gloss over. Clearly if you install one on a new roof, you'd buy the longest life shingles and then the roof and system should have about the same lifespan. But if you have a 12 year old roof, then what?
In NJ, between the Fed tax credit and the utilities being required to buy green energy certificates to meet state mandates, it works out to be feasible here. NJ also has a state credit program to help pay for the system upfront, but it's a typical govt cluster screw job. They allocated X millions to it and give out the money quarterly. Last quarter, they had so many applications, they ran out of money. And one would think that they would then pro-rate the money so everyone got their fair share. No, it doesn't work that way. Some got $10K
+, others got zippo. And to get it, you have to submit a complete application which includes a ton of certification data, a signed contract with the company installing it, etc. BEFORE you install it. So, the poor jerks that did all that last quarter and didn't get squat, can now start the process all over again, because they don't just put you on the list, they toss the whole thing and you start all over again.
I submit, however, that Iran is moving toward making Iran less safe for everyone in Iran, not the rest of the world.
If push comes to shove - say Iran blocks the Straits of Hormuz - the rest of the world will turn on them in an instant with a vengeance of immeasurable proportions. There might be a WW3, except it'll be most of the world against Iran!
The result will be quick and decisive. Iran has to import food. The country has to even import GASOLINE, for crying-out-loud. They have virtually NO stockpiles of fuel (even the Japanese had over a year's supply of oil saved up when they attacked Pearl Harbor).
The country is run by egomaniacs completely detached from reality and their general staff got its military training out of G.I. Joe comic books.
It may make them feel good but I agree with the other poster. I am in SW Florida and I have collectors on my pool. You really need an area pretty close to the size of your pool. The area represented by a coil of black pipe is insignificant compared to a pool. It might work for a COVERED spa but even then, unless the coils of pipe are in a glazed box, you won't do a whole lot better than ambient air temperature. If it is much less than 80 outside, I don't even run the pump after I have circulated the water enough for sanitation.
Bingo, we have a winner. We attacked Iraq so Israel wouldn't have to.
If there was an Iraq/Israel war, either we would have been drawn in or Israel would have been in serious trouble. It could have easily been Israel against everyone else in the region and they can't win that war alone. You might even find a lot of Europe would side with Iraq.. They were certainly moving away from the sanctions and the UN resolutions by the late 90s.
Mall of America in Minnesota has no central heating plant. There is spot heating in a few areas, such as the entrance, but the main mall, located in the frozen land of Minnesota, doesn't require any help other than solar and body heat of shoppers, to maintain comfort in gigantic spaces with sky-high ceilings.
You also need to take into account the heat generated by all of the electrical equipment, lights etc in that mall. That will be far more than the 300 BTU per person you get from the shoppers.
Yeah, that must make up for the lack of a central heating system! Obviously that's what keeps the mall at 65 degrees when the outside temps are 30 or 40 below zero.
Many large commercial buildings use the lighting for heat. They don't get turned off. Also note that the heat loss of a building goes up as the ~2/3s power of the floorspace (larger building less heat per sq.ft.).
I'd be interested in seeing any hard facts about exactly how the Mall of America, in it's entirety, is heated. From what I've found from a bit of googling, as claimed, it does not have a "central heating system". I've also seen it stated that it uses solar heating, ie skylights for the "common areas". But that leaves the majority of the mall, ie ALL the store floor space, which is probably 90%+ of the project. How is that heated? Do we know that each store does not have it's own conventional heating system? And whatever is heating those stores, with wide open doors to the common area, a lot of the common area heating is obviously coming from the stores.
Well, then there you have it. Just as I suspected. That'a a far cry from the posted claim:
"Mall of America in Minnesota has no central heating plant. There is spot heating in a few areas, such as the entrance, but the main mall, located in the frozen land of Minnesota, doesn't require any help other than solar and body heat of shoppers, to maintain comfort in gigantic spaces with sky-high ceilings. "
If Wikipedia is correct, then the overwhelming source of heat for the mall is the individual heating systems in the stores.
You are out of your skull. The wikipedia article doesn't say anything of the kind.
The wikipedia article is poorly written and highly inaccurate.
SOME of the stores have small auxilary heaters for spot heating of certain areas of their stores which need additional heat at times. That is a very far cry from "the overwhelming source of heat for the mall is the individual heating systems in the stores". which is simply wrong. I think it's easy to imagine that the store owners might object to paying to heat the entire mall from their little in-store heaters. Sort of like trying to heat your neighborhood by leaving the windows on your house open. Pretty expensive.
Overall, the mall has to run air conditioning, even during the winter, when the place overheats.
The mall has over 8 ACRES of skylights that use the greenhouse effect to provide most of the heat. Body heat from people is also a big contributor.
Each person gives off about as much heat as a 100 watt incandescent light bulb. A LOT of people go to that mall.
I'll leave it for others to figure out who's out of their skull. But if the measure of that is what Wikipedia says, then I don't think Smitty or I are out of our skulls, because Wikipedia says exactly what Smitty quoted:
OK, I admit Wikipedia may not the best source. Where is your source that says the whole place, stores and all are heated by passive solar and people? The Mall of America's own website has numerous facts listed about the mall:
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acres of skylights .57 miles walking distance around one level,
etc
And all they have to say about heating/cooling is this:
"70 degrees inside the mall, no matter if it is spring, summer, or fall."
Seems rather odd, if in fact it's some solar energy miracle machine.
What they object too, or concede to as conditions of leasing is irrelevant. If, in fact, the stores have their own heating systems, then they aren't heating the entire mall. They are heating their own stores and some of the heat which escapes through the typical mall open doors on stores goes into the common space. Now, I don't now the ratio, but at malls I've been to, the overwhelming space is devoted to retail floor space and the common area is a much smaller percentage. So, if some heat goes out the open doors from all the stores, it could play a significant role in heating the rest of the mall, which is the common area that has no central heating unit. To each store individually, it wouldn't be a huge economic burden to leasing.
Not at all like that. It would be more like heating the common areas of an apartment building with the heat if all tenants left their doors open.
And does the place freeze over when they leave at night? Or when they are closed for holidays? Like I said, I'd like to know more. Just provide a credible reference that supports those claims. Especially that they have to run AC in the winter. So far, what I've seen on the web seems to be very selective and doesn't even come close to giving a picture of the total situation.
Here's a reference that quotes a Mall of America spokesperson and it agrees with Wikipedia:
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"In reality, we don't heat the mall," said Anna Long, a spokesperson for the Mall of America. "There's no central heating system which is incredible if you think about it."
Shoppers are heating up the mall. The body heat of 40 million visitors each year is one of three heating sources. Sunshine from the skylights, which are seven and a half acres of glass and miles of artificial lights help too.
The mall is typically 72 degrees in the winter.
"There's a lot of math that went into it," Long said. "I can't probably give you details you need on that, but I can assure you there were rooms of research went into it so this could work."
Individual stores must have their own heating systems, but during future renovations, experts may find a way to harness the extra heat produced.
So, I'd say it depends on what your definition of "heating the mall" is. To most people, to claim that you're not heating the mall would mean the whole thing, including the stores which are the majority of the square footage. To say we don't heat the common areas is apparently the truth and that's a very different and less dramatic story. To use your analogy, it would be like me claiming I don't need to heat my house, when in fact, it's the sun room that doesn't have the heating unit. One would also have to wonder how much of the miracle heat gain in the winter is then lost to increased cooling needs in the summer. Sunshine still comes in through all those 8 acres of skylights, does it not?
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